Joe Frazier vs Klitschko -OR- is Chris Byrd a better puncher than Earnie Shavers?

FRAZIER! This name is supposed to strike fear into the hearts of boxing fans and teleport them into a never-ending state of terror.

"Frazier!" (you have to pronounce it like televangelists pronounce "jeEEE-Zess").

Only 2 winopponents of Ali are really famous: Frazier is one of them (with ·George Foreman being the other). Frazier even beat Muhammad Ali once thus he is very special to nostalgists ("Ali's nemesis").

When ·Samuel Peter fought against ·Wladimir Klitschko (2nd fight) he tried to "bob and weave" (= bounce the head like a ping pong ball on a wavy water surface) which reminded a lot of people of Joe Frazier who masterfully used this "head pong technique" in the fights against Ali.

"Samuel Peter was primarily fighting from a bob-and-weave style which he had never fought in before. In the first fight with Wladimir, he was more of an upright-walking-him-down type of guy where Wladimir was just moving and hitting him easily with his head up. This time he came out with more of a Joe Frazier style of fighting with his head bobbing and weaving and throwing a lot of powerful left hooks and very seldom throwing right hands."

Emanuel Steward (Klitschko's trainer) about the Klitschko vs Peter II

Now, the new style failed against Klitschko (Sam Peter received his first ever and most brutal canvas-KO) but nevertheless the fight ignited talks about how successful Frazier's ponging would have been against Wladimir. And AliFans came to the (non-surprising) conclusion that Wladimir Klitschko would LOSE:

  • "Wlad won't be able to handle the pressure Joe brings and he'll sh*t his pants somewhere in the middle rounds."
  • "Frazier knocks Wlad out 9/10 times"
  • "Joe frazier would f*ck them boys up"
  • "Are you kidding me, are u for real, are u telling me sorry-azz-wlad would had beat an in prime frazier based on his mummy size? no no no! for one thing- wlad couldnt get past 5 rounds without CPR needed, frazier is a hall of fame 15 rounder– the mummy would had gotten taxed all night"

They also shared other fantasies with us:

  • "Frazier by a 3rd round knockout, Klitschko can't keep him off, when he tries to hold he gets knocked upside the head with vicious hooks and uppercuts."
  • "Frazier allows Klitschko no room to work and knocks him out."
  • "Joe Frazier would go through Klitschko like a hot knife through butter"
  • "Foreman, Louis, Frazier would have left Wladimir in the ring while they were in the limo on their way back home."
  • "Wlad hates guys getting up close and he doesn't have the speed or the movement to keep Joe off of him."
  • "Joe bobs forwards and hits and hits and hits and never gets tired and Wlad's chest caves in or he has to cover his body leaving his chin open to take a fight ending version of the punch that decked Ali."
  • "Frazier's relentlessness would definitely break-down Wlad"
  • "Wlad hasn't faced anyone with the skill or tenacity of Frazier and he also has a glass jaw"
  • (all original quotes)

I asked myself whether such statements are based on some childhood fiction ("Muahaha, Godzilla will destroy your country coz atom bombs are nothin' to Godzilla!") or on some actual real-world facts?

 

 

Sweet Science Fiction

Because whenever I listen to AliFan(t)s ("Ali fantasizers") I definitely get the feeling that they are NOT talking about a human (Joe Frazier) but about THE FRAZIAAAH, an alien robot who has been tweaked by his alien masters to conquer the best fighters of all time ("I..must..destroy..I..must..bob") and could only be temporarily stalled by "Cryptonite Clay" and (for some yet unknown reason) by "Fantastic 4man". Other than that no human being in the history of boxing could survive the weaving of the FRAZIAAAH!

Well, let's forget for a second fairy-tales (because we simply cannot argue against witchcraft arguments) and let's instead compile some factual achievements.

No witchcraft, please.
Show me what real fights you base your opinion on.

 

 

Joe Frazier's career at a glance

  • Frazier was blind on left eye his entire professional career (after a training accident 1964) ("The pirate of the 4 corners of the world"). He would pass medical exams by covering his left eye and then switch his arm to cover his left eye AGAIN. Such a handicap as Frazier wouldn't be allowed to box nowadays.
  • Height: 5'11'.5" (BOTTOM-2 of Wladimir Klitschko's opponents)
  • Started as a cruiser 197 lbs. Median[?] weight 204 lbs. Klitschko NOT ONCE fought anyone as light as that.
  • Median weight of Frazier's KO'victim: 197 lbs (cruiser)
  • Career record (all fights): 32-4 (not too impressive)
  • Career record real[?] heavyweight fights 200×2 lbs: 13-4 (yawn)
  • Career record real superheavyweight fights 215×2 lbs: 1-2
    That would be Frazier's real superheavyweight experience when facing Klitschko. Wladimir Klitschko faced 7 opponents that had so little 215+ experience (at the very beginning of his career) and he KO'ed them all within 4 rounds.
  • Frazier ducked/never fought some of the better+hard punching boxers of his time like Sonny Liston, Mac Foster, Earnie Shavers, Ken Norton, Cleveland Williams.

THAT's Frazier, the fighting machine? That's the one who will make "Klitschko quit on his stool"? (original quote)

 

 

Joe Frazier vs natural heavyweights

There MUST be something else that I am missing! Let's check his performance against natural heavies (= those who never boxed sub-200 lbs and thus are somewhat comparable to Wladimir Klitschko):

  • Frazier boxed 9 times against natural heavies (that's good)
  • He scored 4 KOs (featherfist)
  • of which 3 were against bums[?]
  • and 1 KO (round 11) was against a non-bum
    • ·Buster Mathis (30-4, 61% KO'ratio), a very fat boxer. No wonder Frazier could KO him in the 11th round: It was the first time that Buster went more than 10 rounds and already the previous 10-rounder of Buster was merely a split decision against bum ·Bob Stallings (31-32, 201 lbs).

Hmm, I am still not impressed.

 

 

Joe Frazier vs the fighter comparable to Klitschko

Let's check what happened when Frazier fought the only heavyweight in the 1970ies who is somewhat comparable to Klitschko: George Foreman.

I know, George Foreman…

but let's forget that for a moment and check what round Frazier KO'ed George Foreman in:

  • Oops, Joe Frazier lost (KO5, KO2) and Foreman didn't even sweat.
  • It was one of the most one-sided brutal beatings of the 1970ies ("Ping Pong vs King Kong")

 

 

Joe Frazier vs non-bummy boxers

So where is the achievement of Frazier that will undoubtedly convince everyone of Frazier's chances against Klitschko?

Maybe Frazier was a master in KO'ing non-bums?

  • Frazier fought 20x against bums: KO'ratio 90%
  • Frazier fought 17x against non-bums (that's very good): KO'ratio 52%
  • and of these 17 ALL were natural cruisers except 2 (the aforementioned Buster Mathis (win) and the aforementioned Foreman (2x loss))

Nope, Frazier is also not the non-bum-KO'ing-machine. Let's actually check how Frazier got worse and worse the better his opponents got:

Frazier's performanceMedian opponent's career record
Frazier wins by KO1-314-19
Frazier wins by KO4-635-14
Frazier wins by KO7+45-10
Frazier wins by decision58-9
Frazier loses66-5

Fistic Statistic [#1094.JFPerOppQ] Joe Frazier's performance when the opponents got better and better

Doesn't look good for Frazier against Wladimir Klitschko.

 

 

Joe Frazier vs heavier boxers

Maybe Frazier was a master in KO'ing heavier guys (as would be the case in Frazier vs Klitschko)?

  • Frazier outweighed his opponents in 21 fights: KO'Ratio 95% (he KO'ed all of them but 1)
  • Frazier was outweighed (as would be the case against Klitschko) in 15 fights: KO'ratio 46% (featherfist)

Let me also point out that I ran an outweigh check on tens of thousands of boxing fights. Just the fact alone that you outsize (= out-weigh and out-tall) your opponent gives you a double to triple advantage over your opponent. Thus Frazier (who would be significantly outsized by Klitschko) would have to be twice or thrice as good, which is basically impossible.

 

 

Frazier's 3rd round KOs

At the top of the page a Frazier fan was so friendly to tell us the exact round in which Frazier would KO Wladimir Klitschko ("Frazier by a 3rd round knockout"). On the Internet there are COUNTLESS of other similar statements ("Tyson KOs Klitschko within 1 round", "Ali within 5" etc etc) and the best way to counter is to check whom the boxers actually _DID_ KO within the mentioned number of rounds and whether those KO victims are comparable to Klitschko.

So what kind of opponents did Frazier KO within 3 rounds?

Joe Frazier KO'ed 14 opponents within 3 rounds (that's pretty good, considering he had only 37 fights).

But it turns out that ALL of them were bums[?] (median career record of these bums 11-23) except for 2 opponents

  • ·Bob Foster 188 lbs (= cruiser) and
  • ·Dave Zyglewycz 190 lbs (= cruiser) whom tiny Frazier (hold your hat) out-weighed, out-reached and out-talled.
    Dave Zyglewycz  has been called "the worst guy to ever get a title shot" and once you check his wins (ONLY bums, median record 10-16) you will have to agree.

In other words: Another AliFant(asy) exposed.

 

 

How would Joe Frazier fare nowadays

Let's also ask whether Frazier would have made enough impact on the current heavyweight scene to be allowed to face a Klitschko.

As you know opponents get heavier and heavier from generation to generation. Just look at these stats:

DecadeMedian weight of the opponents of George Foreman
1960ies
196 lbs
1970ies
212 lbs
1980ies
215 lbs
1990ies
227 lbs

Fistic Statistic [#1094.GFDecOppW] How weight changes from decade to decade using the example of George Foreman

 

DecadeMedian weight of the opponents of Mike Tyson
1980ies
215 lbs
1990ies
224 lbs
2000ies
246 lbs

Fistic Statistic [#1094.MTDecOppW] How weight changes from decade to decade using the example of Mike Tyson

Thus Frazier would have to face far heavier opponents (than in the 1970ies) before he could fight a Klitschko. Let's check how the KO'ratio suffers when you face heavier opponents:

Weight of opponentsClay/Ali's KO'RatioJoe Frazier's KO'RatioEarnie Shavers' KO'RatioGeorge Foreman's KO'RatioWladimir Klitschko's KO'ratio
175-184 lbs
100% (extreme hard puncher)
100%
75%
--
185-199 lbs
75% (good puncher)
100% (extreme hard puncher)
93%
100%
-
200-214 lbs
45% (featherfist)
55%
80%
88%
87%
215+ lbs
33% (extreme featherfist)
45% (featherfist)
47%
78%
87%
both 200+ lbs
34% ("like a bee")
44% ("Eliseo Castillo")
66%
82%
87%
both 215+ lbs
27% ("like a butterfly")
25% (no comment)
60%
77%
87%

Fistic Statistic [#1094.PerOppW] How the KO'ratio suffers when your opponents get heavier

Thus you see clearly the difference between genuine KO'ers (Foreman, Klitschko) and former cruisers (Shavers, Ali, Frazier, Michael Moorer, Evander Holyfield etc): A genuine puncher loses only a little bit of his power, whereas the former cruiser get always caught up by his "cruiser past".

Moreover this table exposes some statements for the AliFants ("Ali fantasies") they are:

"Ali don't care about weight and size"
(original quote)

Ali's OVERALL KO'Ratio is just somewhat OK (34 KOs within 12 rounds in 61 fights = 55%) and Frazier's KO'ratio is good (72%), but their KO'Ratio in the weight range that matters nowadays (215+) is so abysmal (20+%) that they would pose hardly any punching threat for modern opponents.

For more statistics about how weight influences outcomes see Wladimir Klitschko only wins by outweighing his opponents

 

A high KO'ratio at lower weights is not representative for higher weights

-and-

Featherfisted'ness at heavyweight is typical for former cruisers

-and-

A power puncher at sub-heavyweight can become an extreme  featherfist at real heavyweight

Frazier would pose less threat for Wladimir Klitschko than ·Eliseo Castillo or ·Chris Byrd.

Actually here I made a comparison to Chris Byrd who is generally considered a featherfist:

namemedian weight of KO'victimKO'ratio against 215+ opponentsHeaviest KO'victimnumber of KOs in 215×2 fights within 12 rounds
Clay/Ali
198 lbs
33%
225 lbs
·Chuck Wepner
35-14
33% KO'ratio
KO 15
3
Joe Frazier
197 lbs
45%
243 lbs
·Buster Mathis
30-4
61% KO'ratio
KO 11
1
Chris Byrd
227 lbs
39%
285 lbs
·John Sargent
29-5
52% KO'ratio
KO 2
4
Earnie Shavers
200 lbs
47%
250 lbs
·Mike Rodgers
3-23
11% KO'ratio
KO 2
2

Fistic Statistic [#1094.KO'Opp] KO performance of Byrd, Clay/Ali, Frazier, Shavers

In other words:

  • Ali's HEAVIEST KO'victim is lighter than Byrd's MEDIAN KO'win
  • Byrd's median KO'victim is 29 lbs heavier than Ali's median KO'win and 30 lbs heavier than Frazier's
  • Ali in the entire 1970ies KO'ed only 5 (FIVE!) opponents within 12 rounds who were real[?] heavyweights 200+ lbs
  • and Frazier in the entire 1970ies KO'ed only 3 (THREE!) Welcome to the golden age of heavyweight boxing.
  • Byrd's number of real heavyweight KOs 200×2 is more than twice as high (19) as Frazier's (8)
  • Chris Byrd looks even good when compared to Earnie Shavers (= allegedly another Super Puncher if you believe the Ali mythology)
  • Byrd has more KOs in real superheavyweight fights 215×2 than Joe Frazier and Earnie Shavers COMBINED

I know, these are facts that good-old-time nostalgists try to ignore, but

Chris Byrd (who is universally considered a featherfist) posed a much higher punch threat than Ali or Frazier ever would.

 

To sum it up:

  • Joe Frazier is a heavyweight featherfist
  • Joe Frazier is a superheavyweight extreme featherfist
  • Joe Frazier's median KO'victim is a cruiser 197 lbs
  • Joe Frazier is smaller than Chris Byrd
  • Joe Frazier is less reachy than Chris Byrd
  • Joe Frazier is featherfistier than Chris Byrd
  • Joe Frazier is a handicap (left eye blind)
  • Joe Frazier (median 204 lbs) is less heavy than Chris Byrd (median 213 lbs)
  • Joe Frazier never faced anyone as tall as Klitschko or as punchstrong as Klitschko
  • Joe Frazier never faced anyone as heavyweight experienced as Klitschko
  • When Joe Frazier met the only heavyweight comparable to Klitschko (Foreman) he was violently schooled

 

 

So what is left?

After years of reading "Ali mythology" I still didn't find out how in the world someone can believe that Frazier poses a threat to Klitschko whatsoever (or even to modern heavyweights in general).

Let me tell you: There is NOTHING in the record of Frazier that would remotely convince me of a win against a Klitschko. Instead ALL of the facts point at an easy win for Klitschko (and we didn't even analyze how well Klitschko fared against such opponents like Frazier).

Frazier's best win was against Ali. It's especially valuable because it was a James vs Bond match ("Double-0" = 2 unbeaten fighters). But that's about it. There is not a single other performance of Frazier that is remotely impressive.

Let's make it even more clear:

Joe Frazier is not the "Super Tyson" that AliFans made him out to be

-and-

Muhammad Ali's problems with Frazier are not a proof of the quality of Frazier, but a proof of the limitedness of Ali

-and-

George Foreman put Frazier there where he objectively belongs

 

 

End words

Wake up. The 1970ies are over.

Klitschko fighting such a small, featherfisty, half-blind opponent like Joe Frazier, would be the final proof for haters of how the current era sucks.

Frazier is not The Fraziaaah. He is Joe, the boxer.

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Joe Frazier vs Klitschko -OR- is Chris Byrd a better puncher than Earnie Shavers?, 3.4 out of 5 based on 26 ratings
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Comments (36)

  • Honza says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Xisu Napy]
    #359 Honza (2011-06-01st)

    George Foreman put Frazier there where he objectively belongs. This can say only hater. Manny Stuard knows that this loss took a lot from Joes acomplisments. Lost with guy like Big George is no shame.

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  • shellbsd23 says:
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    [ip2username: Lapy Voje]
    #3403 shellbsd23 (2011-12-17th)

    Great story man. Good to know all the facts and it makes sense that the Klitschko's would have no problem handling Joe Frazier to me.. I grew up in the Tyson era though, so I don't have any nostalgic feelings towards the 1970's fighters, but I must admit 1 thing. They were all mentally tougher than todays fighters. They were willing to risk their health for victory.

    Money plays a bigger role for fighters these days..

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    • franalfie says:
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      [ip2username: Xyxo Zemi]
      #3720 franalfie (2012-01-27th)

      Don't ask me to name who was best. They were all a biggest and no one these days comes adult to their scratch, and I'm celebrated to have witnessed it all- Dempsey- J Lewis- Liston- Clay- Frazier- Leonard and so on from a ended stately electrifying epoch when a quarrel was a fight,and holding zero divided from Tyson. Sadly I'm not as entertained currently during this level.

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      • Honza says:
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        [ip2username: Waky Boke]
        #5314 Honza (2012-11-21st)

        Greetings to Czech republic. I am also from that country.

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  • Bruce Crichton says:
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    [ip2username: Wagy Gome]
    #3711 Bruce Crichton (2012-01-18th)

    Spot on with your final comment about Foreman putting Frazier where he belongs.

    His reputation as a puncher and for punch-resistance is based on fighting cruiserweights and he would be a very good cruiserweight if he was around today.

    However, it's not merely the fact that he lost to George Foreman that is significant but the margin and manner of the defeat. Thanks to his incompetent cornermen and the equally useless referee, Joe Frazier was lucky to leave Jamaica alive in 1973. Given his slow starting and the regularity with which he took punches, he'd be in desperate trouble against any decent sized, big punching genuine heavyweight.

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    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5864 Tommo (2013-04-01st)

      Agree. Loss to Foreman would be usual benchmark to expect to happen to Frazier against any puncher today 220 lbs and over 6'2" of recent days. Except because modern boxer has more snapping punch they would not need to repeatedly knock him down for same effect. This is not to say Foremans power was nothing special, it definitely was. But there was something about his punches that they knocked any opponent down but they did not put the lights out so often. Imagine for example Samuel Peter today putting that weight onto his chin on the way in. Could bloody well kill Joe. Or even more devastating a champion puncher like Tommy Morrison I believe should not be allowed to fight an opponent like Frazier because the results could just be too devastating for such weak opponent.

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  • Eric says:
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    [ip2username: Zaty Voxe]
    #3760 Eric (2012-02-12th)

    Sorry but Ali's list of noteworthy opponents include more than just Frazier and Foreman. Ali fought everybody who was anybody in the 60's and 70's and while Frazier, Foreman, and Liston top the list, he also fought men just a notch or two below like Floyd Patterson, Ernie Terrell, George Chuvalo, Joe Bugner, Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, Jerry Quarry, Oscar Bonavena, Jimmy Ellis, Buster Mathis, Mac Foster, Ken Norton, Ron Lyle, Jimmy Young, Earnie Shavers, Larry Holmes, and Trevor Berbick. Even Ali's worst critics will concede his list of opposition is without a doubt the toughest among all Heavyweight Champions. I will have to admit that Wlad vs Frazier is a fight that is all wrong for Joe, and as we know styles make fights. I think the fight would go the distance if it was contested over 12 rounds with Wlad winning about 8 or 9 of the rounds, however, I do see Joe's style and relentless pressure giving him trouble in the middle and later rounds. I see both fighters scoring knockdowns with Frazier's coming in the middle rounds and Wlad knocking down Joe early in the opening rounds. Wlad has never faced anyone with the suffocating and relentless style of a Joe Frazier and while he would win the majority of the rounds it would defintely not be a walk in the park.

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    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #3762 Admin (2012-02-13th)

      [quoet]Even Ali's worst critics will concede his list of opposition is without a doubt the toughest among all Heavyweight Champions.[/quote]

      I am one of Ali's toughest critics and I disagree with Ali's opponents being the toughest among all heavyweight champs.

      Half of Klitschko's opponents would have eradicated guys like Patterson.

      Wlad has never faced anyone with the suffocating and relentless style of a Joe Frazier and while he would win the majority of the rounds it would defintely not be a walk in the park.

      Yeah, it would be something like a walk on the beach.

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      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5621 Tommo (2013-03-24th)

        George Foreman. And luckily at that. Otherwise who else of any serious calibre in modern terms? Patterson looks like he would get mopped up by a high school amateur boxer.

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  • Eric says:
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    [ip2username: Zemi Tuta]
    #3763 Eric (2012-02-13th)

    Go to http://www.eastsideboxing.com and read the article "The Bigger They Are:Supersized Heavyweights Then and Now." The post was made when Lennox Lewis was still champion and the Klitschos were just top contenders but it shows that big men in heavyweight boxing have been around forever but it wasn't until recently that they actually made an impact. Even little 5'10 1/2" Marciano ko'ed 3 men between 6'4"-6'5", granted 2 were bums but still at 6'5" they towered over the middleweight sized Marciano. It also shows that the fighters on average were just as large but the really big men never were successful enough to make it past their smaller albeit more talented opposition to gain any kind of national recognition.

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    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5622 Tommo (2013-03-24th)

      That is because although there were giant boxers back then there were no giant "athletic boxers" Those big tall ancient guys were unusually large people who competed in boxing relying purely on their size and weight without much regard on skills training or conditioning, much like Valuev in these days who was even larger. Lennox and the Klitschko's are completely different. They were conditioned like elite athletes and honed their skills to the highest level. This coupled with their physical gifts is what makes them the greatest. Marciano would not just be defeated but IMMEDIATELY Ko'd were he allowed to box them which he would not.

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  • Bruce Crichton says:
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    [ip2username: Tazy Zone]
    #3773 Bruce Crichton (2012-02-20th)

    "I think the fight would go the distance if it was contested over 12 rounds with Wlad winning about 8 or 9 of the rounds, however, I do see Joe's style and relentless pressure giving him trouble in the middle and later rounds."

    There is an obvious problem there: Joe Frazier almost never makes a good start and Wlad has the guns to really hurt him. I would say that Wlad, Vitali, Lennox Lewis, Old George Foreman, Mike Tyson and a few others would all beat Joe Frazier because Smokin' Joe is really only a cruiserweight and doesn't have the weapons do beat these men.

    I don't think any of them would win as quickly as a young George Foreman did in 1973 but only because they don't quite have the power, with the exception of old George, and they don't come out all guns blazing like young George did and, as I said above, there's a huge margin for error.

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    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5623 Tommo (2013-03-24th)

      It would be even faster than with George. He would run straight up and punch Joe's f*ckin lights out within moments of the opening bell. Hell Frazier if he was stupid enough to fight him would run straight into the punch(es) like he did with George trying to crowd him. Problem this time is unlike Georges slower more uncoordinated clobbering, Wlads faster, sharper even more powerful punches would not allow Joe a couple minutes to shine and keep him down the first time.

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  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Bote Kitu]
    #3797 Honza (2012-02-29th)

    I am one of Ali's toughest critics and I disagree with Ali's opponents being the toughest among all heavyweight champs.

    You said toughest critic? Did you mean biggest or you really think that you are tough :mrgreen:

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  • Thomson says:
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    [ip2username: Pyo Rebi]
    #3867 Thomson (2012-04-14th)

    Weight doesn't matter. It's heart and brain. Ali and Frazier had the heart to keep fighting and never give up no matter what. Klitschko may be big but against Ali and Frazier but they ain't got no heart

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    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #3869 Admin (2012-04-14th)
      Weight doesn't matter

      Yes, we should trust Thomson, and not the real world factual stats.

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      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Xupa Gyko]
        #6046 Tommo (2013-04-14th)

        LOL admin :) I think that all professional boxers have heart. The difference is today the punches really ROCK, but back then, atleast with those 2, they were more like pebbles lol. Seriously though if Joe or Ali took anywhere near the kind of punches Wlad has taken they would have been knocked out every time.

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  • kubosn says:
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    [ip2username: Voje Rilu]
    #4153 kubosn (2012-08-15th)

    frazier would kick wladimirs ass……badly, this is a fact

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    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #4154 Admin (2012-08-15th)

      Where? In the press conference?

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    • Bruce Crichton says:
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      [ip2username: Niru Rady]
      #4287 Bruce Crichton (2012-09-13th)

      Frazier would avoid Wladimir since the big man is a known puncher.

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      • Admin says:
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        [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
        #4319 Admin (2012-09-14th)

        Frazier avoided big punchers wherever he could. Foreman was a mandatory for Frazier, so that's why he had to fight him.

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        • Honza says:
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          [ip2username: Jylo Geli]
          #5009 Honza (2012-10-09th)

          Show me some prove that Joe avoided punchers ok? Only two possible examples would be Sonny Liston and Ken Norton. Same can be said in Vitalij case. Vitalij ducked Rahman several times

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          • Tommo says:
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            [ip2username: Xupa Gyko]
            #6047 Tommo (2013-04-14th)

            Did Vitali duck Rahman Honza? I would not rate Rahman the same level as Vitali overall but I could conceive that Vitali would not be jumping at the chance to fight Hasim since he was a serious threat to them at that time and I do believe Vitali was not estranged to cherry picking at times :) But I see no evidence that Frazier ever made an attempt to fight any kind of puncher either In fact I see nothing in Frazier's resume or his fights with Ali/Foreman that proves admin wrong in any way to be be honest. Hate being so hard on Joe but I can't see him dealing with anything a decade on too well. I think he should have fought Norton. Norton would have been good match for Frazier!! Could have been one of the great 70s trilogies :)

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            • Honza says:
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              [ip2username: Jylo Geli]
              #6053 Honza (2013-04-15th)

              Admin said that Vitali did not duck Rahman but I agree with you that he definetly was a cautioned about him. I think Vitali knew that Rahman is a serious puncher. But you are right that Vitali did not cherry picking at the time. He is only cherry picking now.

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        • Jethro's Flute says:
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          [ip2username: Vebi Dupa]
          #7599 Jethro's Flute (2014-10-14th)

          Ali was the mandatory, not Foreman.

          Foreman was expected to be a warm-up fight for Frazier with an Ali rematch to follow.

          It shows how on the ball his handlers were. Frazier didn't take Foreman seriously in training at all and was regularly spanked in sparring with Ken Norton.

          It's a wonder Frazier left Jamaica alive.

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    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5624 Tommo (2013-03-24th)

      "This is a fact"

      How, in what deranged logic, is this a fact? Absolute waste of space writing that statement with no actual "fact" to back it up.

      And in fact we don't really need to use any facts. Look at Joe, then look at Wladimir. Tell me honestly can you really see Joe Frazier kicking his ass? He wouldn't even be useful as a sparring partner for the big commie bastard lol.

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      • Jethro's Flute says:
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        [ip2username: Vebi Dupa]
        #7598 Jethro's Flute (2014-10-14th)

        Nothing commie about the K brothers

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  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Waky Boke]
    #5313 Honza (2012-11-21st)

    I just found out that Lamon Brewster was blind on one eye during second battle with Wlad. He was already past his best. But only Joe Frazier was one eyed dwarf right? :)

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    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #5315 Admin (2012-11-21st)

      Except, that Brewster wasn't. You have been misinformed. Brewster had a laser operation to glue his retina to the eye. After such operations the retina can be firmer attached to the eye than a natural retina.

      It was Calvin Brock who became blind on one eye after an eye surgery after the fight with Wlad. That's why he retired.

      Brewster was half-blind AFTER his fight with Helenius (= the last fight of his career).

      But let's suppose for a moment, that Brewster was half blind indeed his entire professional career (which he wasn't). Then yes, all wins against Brewster would have been tainted. And all of Brewster's wins would hint at weak opponents.

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  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Bote Kitu]
    #5340 Honza (2012-11-28th)

    Joe Frazier, Ron Lyle, Angelo Dundee and Manny Steward. Four legends of boxing have died since last year. :(

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    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Xupa Gyko]
      #6048 Tommo (2013-04-14th)

      That's something about this site, when one must argue for or against a boxer, respect must be maintained. I've said some negative things about Joe and although I believe in my conclusions about his performance he was still a champion.

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      • Honza says:
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        [ip2username: Jylo Geli]
        #6054 Honza (2013-04-15th)

        And that is thing I like about you the most. Even that you are critisizing someone you can still show respect. You know that I am close to no fan of Klitschkos but I still respect them a lot. Especially Wlad who is a big time champion.

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  • Tommo says:
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    [ip2username: Rajy Pole]
    #5556 Tommo (2013-03-17th)

    His only win against any top contender was Ali. And the only other one he fought was Foreman (which we all seen what happened there.) It's not that champions like Joe were bad boxers, they had to be good at what they did to get to the top in the first place. It's just that they weren't the best of their own era by any criteria, only waiting to be exposed/disposed of and fortunate to have assumed the position for a time. And certainly not able to compete with the likes of Tyson, Lennox or a K-bro.

    Watch some fights, who would you put money on.

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  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Gajy Xode]
    #6113 Honza (2013-04-19th)

    I think that both Muhammad and Ali were two tought fighters who copuld take a good punch. Do not forget that boxers from 70s were using bigger gloves. It can show two things. Older boxers were weaker or tougher. If you watch tougheness of Larry and George at old age then you could at least think that those tier fighters (Larry, Mohama, Ken, George, Joe) were tougher then some fans are giving them. I believe they would be competive today. They were better then most of todays boxers. That is my opinion. But then again I am big fan of them. At least do not tell me that Evander or Riddick are weaker then today midcards like Arreola or Povetkin. :)

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    • Honza says:
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      [ip2username: Gajy Xode]
      #6114 Honza (2013-04-19th)

      Sorry. I wanted to say Muhammad and Joe. :)

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    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Xupa Gyko]
      #6116 Tommo (2013-04-20th)

      On the former point I can't see Joe surviving much of anything today. But if Riddick and Evander were around today they would be top tier of course. I couldn't see Joe surviving Holyfield, that left hook couldn't crack that chin if it tried and Holy would tie Joe up in knots, look what he did to Tyson and i'm sure he could do it far easier against Joe, just my opinion. And against Riddick I can't think of anything meaningful Joe could bring to threaten Bowe.

      I think Larry and George are two very exceptional circumstances where their health and sharpness of mind at advanced age led to them being able to continue being very competitive, Lennox could have continued likewise if he desired and so could Klitschko's. What unites these guys is they were very dominant for their times and did not fight too many wars, take many shocking beatings/KO's etc. Muhammad was getting shot from all the repeated blunt head traumas he sustained and unable to do this and Joe was never a large enough heavyweight to be a serious threat in advanced age even if he was a good fighter. I'm afraid I must agree with admin on this point that using Joe/Muhammad conflict as proof of greatness for them is rather a proof of limitedness of both. :(

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