Muhammad Ali vs Wladimir Klitschko – Fact-based analysis and prediction

LET ME TELL YOU AN OPEN SECRET:

A lot of fans and experts know that Muhammad Ali would have not much chance against the Klitschko brothers (be it Wladimir Klitschko or Vitali Klitschko).

They know that the Klitschkos are far too modern to be endangered by any ancient fighter, even if it's an ATG like Ali.

Most fans and experts consider ·George Foreman, ·Earnie Shavers or ·Mike Tyson (or any other hard puncher) to be far more competitive against a Klitschko than Ali. They know that Klitchko vs Ali would be a mismatch.

I already wrote

so it's time to analyze Muhammad Ali (aka Cassius X aka Cassius Clay) now.

 

Wash your face in _my_ sink, Muhammad!

This article is a boxing record analysis in the sense of "Who would win in the same ring?" ("head to head", "toe to toe", "prime for prime").

A different record analysis in the sense of "Who has the better achievements?" ("record for record") can be found at Boxing eras (3) Wladimir Klitschko in the Golden Age of Heavyweight -OR- How abysmal was Ali's era really? and at Statistical analysis of heavyweight world championship records -OR- Joe Louis, Wladimir Klitschko, Muhammad Ali: Who has the best world title record?.

Before you continue, I suggest you check my definitions of bum[?] or featherfist[?] for which I apply a mathematical formula.

 

Cassius Clay, the cruiser -vs- Klitschko, the ultraheavyweight

Basically THE ONLY reason why people even think about comparing Wladimir Klitschko to Muhammad Ali is the ridiculous definition of *heavyweight*.

In Ali's times heavyweight was defined completely different (approximately 40 pounds lighter than nowadays) and EVERYBODY who glances at these pictures knows instantly that such "boys" would have no chance, even against modern B-level heavyweights:

Ali 1963 01 01
Cassius "The Greatest" Clay
in his 4th year (1963) as
what-they-called-then
"heavyweight"

Joe Louis Arlington
Joe Louis
Another "heavyweight"

The visual comparison is actually enough and my article should stop right here.

But the governing bodies messed up the term "heavyweight" thus you landed on this page and I have to write about CLAYPIGEONS vs STEELHAMMERS.

Would ancient boxers like Muhammad Ali or Joe Louis be appropriately named CakaHweights (= "Cruiserweights AKA Heavyweights" or "Cruiserweights formerly known as heavyweights" or "170-pounders") and would modern heavyweights (like the Klitschkos, Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson etc) be named appropriately (e.g. "ultraheavyweights") it would be sufficiently clear how laughable a comparison is.

But back then they didn't have the term "cruiserweight" and they simply called all boxers from around 165 lbs and up "heavyweights". Thus fights like 163 lbs vs 172 lbsPhiladelphia Jack O'Brien vs ·Tommy Burns) were called "heavyweight" (picture below), which confuses fans to this very day.


Heavyweight world championship
1906
172 lbs vs 163 lbs
Tommy Burns vs Philadelphia Jack O Brien

 

In Ali's times "heavyweight" was defined as 176+ lbs
which is lighter than today's female heavyweight division.

-and-

Clay/Ali and Joe Louis (the two boxers from the pictures above)
out-weighed their opponents
in approximately 75% of the fights
hence to compare Louis' or Ali's records to the records of modern heavyweights is even more laughable
than the body comparison already is.

-and-

Clay/Ali had supposedly his prime in the 1960s.
His median weight in the 1960s was 199 lbs.
Nowadays Prime Ali wouldn't even be ALLOWED to box against the Klitschkos.

 

"Weight is not everything in boxing"

I already know how AliFants ("Ali fantasizers") try to cover up this truth (= that Ali was merely a blown up cruiser).

They will chant "Height And Weight Are Irrelevant" (HAWAI). I discuss this HAWAI myth at Height and weight are irrelevant at heavyweight boxing -OR- Joe Louis vs Primo Carnera, Abe Simon, Buddy Baer.

Thus let me only say so much here:

Boxing is divided in weight classes for a reason, dear AliFants. There are no height divisions, age divisions or reach division, because weight at heavyweight boxing is one of the _most_ important factors.

 

Muhammad Clay – A fast athletic heavyweight with great stamina and a granite chin

The main reason why Ali turned from a light heavyweight to a 200+ heavyweight is because he got fatter ("From light heavyweight to lard heavyweight").

Cassius the cruiser boy
Clay, the cruiser kid

Ali the Sam Peter of the 70ies
Mu.HAM.mad,
the "seasoned" BUTTER-fly

Now, I personally think that chubby boxers can actually have an advantage because of the protective assets of fat, but nevertheless anybody who insists on an "Ali vs Klitschko clash" has to be reminded of the fact that there are 2 versions of Muhammad Ali

  1. Clay, the cruiser: With a suspect chin (see below)
  2. Ali, the heavyweight: Fat and plodding, with a better chin but far slower

I know that AliFants ("Ali fantasizers") love mind melts ("a fast Ali with speed and a durable chin") but such Ali never existed, except for rare moments.

 

Muhammad Ali and his abysmal KO performance

Clay/Ali is one of the most featherfisted champs in the history of real[?] heavyweight boxing ("like a butterfly").

Usually if you talk about Ali's boxing merits then fans mention "speed", "stamina", "reflexes" and "chin" BUT NOT "power".

Because AliFans know exactly that their man was rather a powder puffer than a power puncher.

But even to fans it comes as a shock HOW ABYSMAL Clay/Ali's KO performance actually was.

His overall KO ratio is not that bad, but that's because he KO'ed a lot of bums[?] and cruisers (= sub-200 opponents).

But once you delete bums and cruisers and overlate KOs (= in round 13+) off the record (to have a more realistic assessment of his KO power as compared to modern heavyweight times) you find out that he scored the following SEVEN KOs in his entire career

  • ·Sonny Liston (1st fight): Sonny (most probably 37 years old, some even claim 45 years old, thus probably Ali's second oldest opponent), retired on his chair due to a shoulder problem (he had an inflammated shoulder that tore up during the fight).
  • Sonny Liston (2nd fight): The most contested KO in heavyweight history for several reasons, for example: The referee didn't even start to count. Also mention worthy is that Liston's wife and son were kidnapped prior to the fight by Ali's friends (the Black Muslims).
  • ·Cleveland Williams: Williams was gun-shot prior to the bout, had intestines removed, parts of the kidney, couldn't train properly and came to fight with a limping and atrophied leg (you can see how the left leg is thinner than the right one). This fight was a disgrace for boxing.
  • ·Ron Lyle: The referee stops the fight without a proper knockdown. (wikipedia) "Ali then hit Lyle with a strong right hand and then followed up by hitting Lyle with an unanswered combination before the referee hastily stopped the fight. However, Lyle's corner was not happy with the referee’s decision to stop the fight, Lyle was interviewed after the fight and had no visible signs of injury. Given the nature of most fights in the same era, before and after the fight, the stoppage was very unusual"
  • ·Alvin Lewis: Referee stops the fight for Lewis being on his legs but extremely exhausted. Lewis was 224 lbs and this makes it Ali's heaviest KO win.
  • ·Zora Folley: An uncontested KO, however Zora Folley was only 202 lbs and nearly 11 years older than Ali. He looks like a cruiser and fights like a cruiser. Actually 202 lbs isn't even considered a cruiser nowadays anymore.
  • ·George Foreman: A contested KO due to the circumstances:
    • The fight happened in the rain forest (open air) during the rain season in Africa ("Rumble in the jungle")
    • Foreman was held captive by the regime
    • Foreman was life threatened and had to import food from the USA
    • Ali's trainer admits to have manipulated the ropes
    • Ali's co-trainer claimed he paid the cooks to poison Foreman
    • and Foreman indeed to this very day insists he was poisoned ("I climbed into the ring with that medicinal taste still lingering in my mouth")

While none of Klitschkos' KOs are contested (they simply beat their opponents violently until they collapse) Ali has a hard time to show us even one valid understandable KO.

 

Compared to other heavyweight champs Ali ranks at the all-time bottom (he is bottom #4), and if you are interested you can read the entire tables

 

Now, EVEN IF you accept all of the above 7 KOs as valid KOs the fact remains that Ali's KO'performance is #4 from the bottom of all heavyweight world champs to date, and this is already generous…

  • …because it includes ·Tony LaRosa (at bottom #2) (who was a champ without winning it in the ring)
  • …because IT ALSO INCLUDES Ali's contested KOs (see above) AND his overlate KOs (round13+).

Thus if you would exclude Tony LaRosa and all of Ali's contested KOs then Ali would probably the most featherfisted champ of all time.

Muhammad Ali is the most famous
extreme featherfist ("like a butterfly") of all time!

That such a featherfist like Ali could rule the division for so long shows you in what a bad state the Golden Age of heavyweight boxing really was.

There are 2 reasons why Ali's KO'performance is so bad:

  1. His merry-go-rounding (= floating) as a substitute for his bad reflexes (see below)
  2. His RELUCTANCE to punch ("Cassius Nay").
    Every time I watch an Ali fight (or even when I see footage of him training on the sand bags) I see him postponing/weakening his punches. A good example is when George Foreman goes down. Any other boxer I can think of would have punched Foreman on his way down. That Ali didn't is a sign of his typical cowardly reluctance to punch.

 

 Johnny Carson (The Tonight Show):

"This just in from the News Room… Muhammad Ali and Alfredo Evangelista have just been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize – For Promoting Non-Violence in Professional Boxing"

 

The fairy-tale of Muhammad Ali's phenomenal reflexes

Ali's reflexes are a blatant lie.

Let me rephrase: Of all assets Ali supposedly had "reflexes" are the most frequent and most outrageous lie.

Let me rephrase again: Ali's reflexes are GROSSLY overrated. They hardly exist ("Muhammad Zero"). They are an invention.

I know that AliFans CLAIM that Ali had great reflexes.

I know that AliFans are great at watching YouTube clips that feature Ali's supposedly superior reflexes. But, sorry, you should not be interested in YouTube clips.

You should watch Ali's entire fights
not some best-seconds-of-career snippets.

 

In rare moments Ali indeed managed to dodge punches.

In these rare moments it was mainly because he stood out of range, not because of his reflexes.

  • In 90% of the time ALI WAS REFLEXLESS.
  • Ali got hit by the slowest punches as soon as he was in range.
  • He absorbed everything with his face and body ("Mo'hammered Ali").
  • He got pounded in fights and in sparring.

It seems as if he was BLIND to punches. He didn't see them coming and he didn't want to see them coming.

And you know what? Being hit WAS EXACTLY Muhammad Ali's FIGHTING PLAN:

Laila Ali (Ali's daughter and also a boxer):
"His strategy was for people to beat on him to tire his opponents out."

and

"He had an unusual ability to take punishment. Ali sometimes took delight, to take blows."
Howard Cosell, sports journalist

and

Ali during the training for the Larry Holmes fight:
Q: "Ali, Why you keep getting hit?"
Muhammad Ali: "I want to get accustomed to the blows."

Laila Ali and Howard Cosell describe what everyone can see who watches a full Ali fight (not some Youtube clip): His strategy was to be hit until he had out-staminized his opponent.

Here lies the MAIN reason for Ali's abysmal KO performance: Because of his lack of reflexes he developed what-he-called "floating" ("merry-go-rounding"):
He would "dance" around his opponent 3-4 feet away so his opponent would not be able to hit him. Well, of course he wouldn't be able to hit the opponent either, but since his strategy was to out-staminize his opponent it wouldn't matter anyway.

 

Just watch the opening round of Muhammad Ali vs Mac Foster. (And PLEASE do NOT watch some YouTube best-of-round compilation).

This is THE TYPICAL coward style of Ali: Circling around the opponent far away, reluctance to engage ("Cassius Nay"), missed punches, punching while moving backwards.

Then switch to round 4+ to witness Ali's "out-of-this world reflexes".

 

The legend of Speedy GonzAli

Muhammad Ali could be fast. At least while he was still a cruiser (below 200 lbs).

As a 200+ heavyweight his speed was nothing special.

Chris Byrd's and Eddie Chambers' hand speed is faster than Ali's and they both never posed a KO threat to Wladimir Klitschko.

In fact all the flurries that AliFans may point out (YouTube snippets) are just that: Flurries, wind makers, shoe shine combos.

Had they been any good then his KO performance wouldn't be so bad.

 

There is another reason why people consider Ali's speed and reflexes to be good:
Ali's early footage (black and white) is sometimes played at the incorrect speed. Thus you get this typical Charlie Chaplin'esque "fast forward" quick-motion effect. If you don't exactly check whether a 3-minute round lasts exactly 3 minutes then you might have been fooled by the time-lapse of "ChALI Jablin".

 

The myth of Muhammad Ali's iron chin

Whether Ali's chin is hard or not is unclear.

I know that good-old-time nostalgists love to point out Ali's hard chin but he DID get knocked down (e.g. by bummy featherfist ·Henry Cooper 185 lbs). And he DID get knocked out (retired on his stool).

Let's analyze a bit closer whether Ali's chin has really been proven against hard hitting punchers.

Let me first point out a very important fact:

It's typical for former cruisers that they are featherfists at heavyweight.

A cruiser who might have an impressive KO'performance at cruiserweight will "suddenly" turn into a featherfist as soon as he moves the division up to heavyweight.

Obviously a lot of cruisers rely on their speed to KO their cruiser opponents. As soon as they (and their opponents) rise to 200+ lbs their KO'power "miraculously" vanishes.

Famous examples of this effect are Evan Fields, Michael Moorer, Earnie Shavers, Joe Frazier and… Clay/Ali himself.

These are very good boxers (as cruisers) but although they perform somewhat well at heavyweight they can never leave their cruiser heritage behind:

NameKO'ratio against cruisers and belowKO'ratio against genuine heavyweights (215+ lbs)
·Muhammad Ali
79.1% (19of24)
33.3% (5of15)
·Michael Moorer
100.0% (22of22)
46.1% (12of26)
·Joe Frazier
100.0% (17of17)
45.4% (5of11)
·Evander Holyfield
77.7% (14of18)
34.4% (10of29)
·James Toney
59.1% (42of71)
22.2% (2of9)
·Earnie Shavers
91.1% (31of34)
47.8% (11of23)

Fistic Statistic [#2342.1]

You see how the KO'ratio suffers immensely as soon as cruisers move up. Actually their fabulous KO'ratio at lower weights has nothing whatsoever to do with their KO'performance at higher weights.

Since 39 (of Clay/Ali's 50) opponents have been cruisers or former cruisers their punching power was FAR LESS than good-old-time nostalgists believe. Surviving former cruisers is an utterly different task than surviving genuine heavyweights.

Of the 50 opponents whom Ali faced only 11 were natural heavyweights.

Of these 11 natural heavies 4 have been bums, e.g. featherfist Chuck Wepner 35(17)-14, who (although bummy) managed indeed score a knockdown against Ali.

Of the remaining 7 opponents only 2 have a KO'ratio 70%+ (= hard punchers) in real heavyweight fights:

  • Ken Norton (70%) (with a doubtful chin himself), who broke Ali's jaw in the second round ("Clay's Clay chin") and won
  • George Foreman (84%), inconclusive fight and dubious win (see above), who blood-tore Ali's intestines apart

Sonny Liston (who scored 5 KOs against 215+ lbs opponents in his whole career) is mention worthy but Clay/Ali didn't win both fights due to a superior chin but due to stink'n'running.

In other words: Ali's punch resistance against heavy hitters has been far less tested than good-old-time nostalgists claim.

And more importantly: EVEN IF Clay/Ali's chin had been tested against punchers, it's still true that Clay/Ali DID NOT face anyone as hard punching as the Klitschkos.

His hardest punching opponent was ·George Foreman, but as I wrote at the beginning of this article the win was dubious and moreover George Foreman is several punch classes below Wladimir Klitschko (based on the KO'speed and quality of KO'victims).

In other words: You can not deduct from Clay/Ali's chin performance how he would fare against the Klitschkos.

If you want to interpret "Ali vs Foreman" somehow,
then interpret it as "Ali ducked a Foreman rematch at all costs until Foreman retired"

 

Here is a description of Ali's fight against ·Henry Cooper (a 40-14 cruiser bum[?]):

"Cooper did not have a trainer at this time and his own regime led to him losing weight; Cooper claims lead was inserted in his boots for the weigh-in, and estimates he actually weighed 180 lbs, making him 27 pounds lighter than Clay. Commentator Harry Carpenter remarked during the introductions on the difference in size between the boxers…

In the dying seconds of the fourth round, Cooper felled Clay with an upward angled version of his trademark left hook, "Enry's 'Ammer". Unfortunately for Cooper, Ali's armpit caught in the ropes going down, which prevented his head from striking the canvas covered boards which made up the floor of the ring (something which could easily have knocked him unconscious). Clay stood up and started slowly towards Angelo Dundee who –in violation of the rules– guided him into the corner. A still-dazed Clay got up off the stool after several seconds, but Dundee sat him back down and used smelling salts to help Clay recover (this was a serious violation of the rules).

Dundee has since claimed to have opened a small tear in one of Clay's gloves and told the referee that his fighter needed a new pair of gloves, thus delaying the start of the 5th round.


Cooper has always insisted that this delay lasted anywhere from 3–5 minutes and denied him the chance to try to knock Clay out while he was still dazed. In tapes of the fight it seems Clay only received an extra six seconds (although there are still doubters who think a longer delay was edited out), and the gloves were not replaced. When the 5th round started, Clay ferociously attacked Cooper's cuts, leaving him streaming with blood; referee Tommy Little was forced to stop the fight in the American's favor although Cooper was ahead on the scorecards.

After this fight, a spare pair of gloves was always required at ringside."

(wikipedia) Henry Cooper

In my view this fight disqualifies Ali from any consideration as hard chinned.

 

Muhammad Ali — A suspect chin or The greatest clown to ever box?

You may have noticed it in a lot of boxing fights:

When a boxer is hurt after a punch he sometimes starts to grin, to grimace, to shake his head (as if to say "It didn't hurt me") or to hop up and down.

Ali did that a lot. Talking, hopping, shaking his head, gaping his mouth, leaning on the ropes, making faces (see also Muhammad Ali — The one man zoo). Especially after being hit.

Now, since Ali for many is more of a religious figure than a real world boxer AliFants usually interpret it as "Wonderful! What a showmaster! Look how he floats'n'dances and what beautiful faces he makes."

But objectively one should probably interpret it as "Muhammad Ali got hurt" and "Cassius Clay's chin cracked".

Add to it Ali's excessive holding and you can probably deduct a much more accurate picture of Ali's chin qualities (or lack thereof) than all the fairy-tales suppose.

 

Wladimir Klitschko's and Vitali Klitschko's KO performance

At Hardest hitters of boxing: KO stats of Tyson, Klitschko, Foreman, Shavers and other knockout artists I analyzed already the KO ratios (and other KO stats) of the heaviest hitting KO'ers of all time and nobody comes close to Wladimir Klitschko and Vitali Klitschko.

The Klitschkos are KO PHENOMENA and it is UNPARALLELED in the history of heavyweight boxing what each of them is doing (especially Wladimir Klitschko).

If you talk about
Muhammad Ali -vs- Wladimir Klitschko
or about
Vitali Klitschko -vs- Muhammad Ali
then you talk about
THE HARDEST HITTING CHAMP of all time -vs- THE SOFTEST STROKING CHAMP of all time

It's literally "Iron Fist vs Butterfly" and "Steelhammer vs Bee".

Ali has not remotely been exposed to such KO'performers like the Klitschkos.

The Klitschkos on the other hand have faced only 3 opponents (out of 100+ opponents) who were more featherfisted than Ali (= needed more rounds per KO 200×2 than Ali):

Well, no wonder, if you look like a light heavyweight you punch like a light heavyweight:

Ali 1963 01 01

 

Now, EVEN IF you don't believe in superlatives like "hardest" and "softest" you have to understand that Ali's chin would have to withstand a power that it was never exposed to, while the Klitschkos would fight somebody who ranks among the weakest punching opponents they have ever faced and poses literally no punching threat to them.

And before someone mentions that "Ali survived Joe Frazier, Earnie Shavers and George Foreman who had comparable power to the Klitschkos"

No, they hadn't. Click the links that I mention at the top of this article where I analyze Shavers and Frazier and Foreman. Wladimir Klitschko's power is SEVERAL leagues above them.

 

Did Muhammad Ali face anyone like the Klitschkos?

Well, let's listen for a second to the delusions Angelo Dundee (the trainer of Ali):

Q: "How would Ali do today, with the huge Klitschko brothers?"

Angelo Dundee: "He would’ve stopped both of them. See, Ali looked great against big guysCleveland Williams I’ll give you as an example, a huge guy. Another guy, most people haven’t seen the fight, a guy named Duke Sabedong from early in Muhammad’s career. He was like 6'6''. Ali's speed would have overcome both Klitschko brothers."

Either Angelo Dundee is in denial or he tries to brainwash us (just like other boxing experts):

·Cleveland Williams was 6'3'' (and was outweighed by Ali and additionally couldn't train since he was lying in the hospital after a gun-shot, as I wrote at the beginning of the article) and ·Duke Sabedong was not KO'ed. And it's jaw dropping that Dundee compares a Klitschko to Sabedong, who is a 17-16 bum (which is by the way the very reason why he says that "most people haven’t seen the fight").

It's exactly such completely unreflected nonsense like this that makes boxing fans think that Ali would have chances against the Klitschkos.

 

What were the tallest opponents Muhammad Ali KO'ed?

The tallest guys Ali KO'ed were 6'4'':

 

What were the heaviest opponents Muhammad Ali KO'ed?

The heaviest guy Ali KO'ed (within 12) was

  • Alvin Lewis 224 lbs KO11 (the heaviest!)

The median KO'victim of Muhammad Ali is 197 lbs.

 

What were the most experienced opponents Muhammad Ali KO'ed?

The most experienced opponent Ali has ever faced (experience in 200×2 fights at time of the bout) was

Ali, of course, couldn't KO these guys.

In fact the most experienced guys he could KO were

It should be clear that by having a real heavyweight record of approximately 60 fights Wladimir Klitschko would be by far the most experienced and most dangerous opponent Ali has ever faced.

 

What was Ali's own heavyweight (200×2) experience?

Prime Ali (in the year 1967, if we believe Ali fans) had merely a real heavyweight experience of 8-0. Prime Ali's experience would be worse than nearly all of Wladimir Klitschko's opponents (all but 6 opponents).

Actually Ali's whole career experience is 28-4 (= 32  real heavyweight fights) and is nothing special nowadays. Wladimir Klitschko fought 31 opponents with such an experience (or even better).

And I am still generous here, because I counted 200+ lbs as "heavyweight" whereas 215+ lbs is the entry point nowadays (with Wladimir Klitschko's opponents being 234 lbs on the average).

Would we set indeed the margin to 215+ lbs (to have a more realistic assessment of Ali's experience in modern times) Ali's record would be merely 10-1 (instead of 28-4).

So how many opponents did Ali fight who were 215+ lbs (at bout) and who never boxed below 215+ lbs (as would be the case against Klitschko)?

 

Prime Muhammad Ali (Prime Cassius Clay) vs Klitschko

People consider the 1960s to be Ali's prime (based on his speed and record).

Prime Muhammad Ali (1960s) (median weight 199 lbs) would be BY FAR THE LIGHTEST opponent the Klitschkos have ever faced. In fact, Cassius Clay would be so light he wouldn't be allowed to box a Klitschko.

The weight of Prime Clay/Ali's opponents was a median 196 lbs.

The Klitschkos on the other hand (median weight approx. 240 lbs) would be BY FAR THE HEAVIEST opponents Prime Clay/Ali has faced.

Please note that Ali's KO'ratio diminished rapidly as soon as opponents got heavier. Please read Joe Frazier vs Klitschko -OR- is Chris Byrd a better puncher than Earnie Shavers? for the figures.

In terms of real heavyweight experience 200×2 Prime Ali was 8-0 (8 wins, 0 losses). The Klitschkos fought only 9 opponents with so little (or less) experience. They KO'ed all of them (average KO'round 2).

Even Prime Ali's WHOLE experience (29 fights, including sub-200 fights) is nothing special. Wladimir Klitschko has won against 27 opponents with such an experience.

In terms of real heavyweight experience 200×2 Prime Ali's most experienced opponents were 23-3 (the aforementioned crippled Cleveland Williams, a former cruiser), 16-7 (George Chuvalo, a former cruiser, gave Clay a hell of a beating) and 13-1 (Charlie Powell). You see that even Ali's most experienced opponents would be far worse than the Klitschkos.

 

Muhammad Ali's footwork is too good for Wladimir Klitschko

A typical Clay-friendly argument is "Clay/Ali has superb footwork. Wladimir Klitschko has problems with movers".

Now, EVEN IF you consider Muhammad Ali to have good footwork (which he hasn't aside from his running away) then you have to realize that Wladimir Klitschko never had problems with the footwork of his opponents.

Quite the opposite: It was the stiff Ross Puritty and the marching forward Sam Peter who gave Klitschko the biggest problems.

And Corrie Sanders and Lamon Brewster are not world-famous for their footwork either.

No, neither Ali's footwork nor his powder jab are of any advantage for Ali.

 

So why did Muhammad Ali win so many fights if Muhammad Ali is so bad?

There are several reasons

  • Ali was a stink 'n' run boxer ("Dirty Clay"). Clay/Ali is the most famous stinker in boxing history. Either he would do dirty tricks (thumbing, strangling, threaten with terroristic attacks a la My Muslim friends will burn down your house, etc…) ("Clay as Clay can", "Sting like a bee") or he would run (= circle around the opponent in a comfortable distance). Clay/Ali is actually a prime example how well simple street strategies (dirty fighting and running) work. Back in those days the referees were not too particular about it.
  • The rumor goes that he fixed his early fights ("Cash us clay"). That's possibly the reason why he predicted so many of his early fights correctly. Since he always had a loose lip ("Long Tongue Ali") he possibly couldn't resist to brag about the outcome. There was even an official investigation to investigate whether Ali had his early fights fixed, but no one could find waterproof evidence.
  • Muhammad Ali outweighed most of his opponents (73% of his fights). (Wladimir Klitschko only outweighs approximately in 50% of his fights.)
  • Muhammad Ali was chubby. Not in all of his fights but in a lot. I believe that fat protects a boxer thus a chubby skilled heavyweight boxer (like Ali) has advantages over many opponents.
  • Ali had great stamina. I give him that. His stamina and his possibly good chin were his best assets.
  • Ali didn't duck anyone (aside from a possible Foreman rematch, but I admit that ducking a rematch is far less serious than ducking a match). Additionally Ali didn't duck any country. He fought in 13 countries (the most of all world champions). Only ·Nikolai Valuev (11 countries) comes close.
  • The main reason for Ali's fame is probably that he was rrreally lucky regarding his rematches, see below.
  • Ali is possibly clairvoyant. I give him that, too.
  • 46% of his wins were against cruisers (or himself being a cruiser).
  • 80% of his wins were against cruisers or former cruisers. Actually 11 of his fights were against former SUB-cruisers. In other words: Since the Klitschkos are not former cruisers but genuine heavyweights who never boxed below 220/230 lbs a large part of Ali's experience is useless.
  • In 95% of his fights he was out-sizing his opponent (out-talling, out-reaching or out-weighing). Now, the Klitschkos do the same (there is nothing wrong in using your body advantages) but the point is that in a fight against a Klitschko Ali would suddenly himself be out-talled and out-weighed and out-reached. An utterly unusual situation for Ali, while a very typical situation for the Klitschkos.

The opponent with the biggest weight difference
in real heavyweight fights 200×2
whom Muhammad Ali ever managed to KO
was ·Charlie Powell (a 25-11 bum) who was
9 lbs heavier and 9 years older than Ali.

 

So… When you read the above facts it's clear that the typical constellations for an Ali win are simply not there:
He could not use dirty tactics nor has he a reach/height/weight/experience advantage.

Here is what somebody else wrote about why Ali won so many fights:

"The name of the game is to hit and not get hit, right? There's a thin line between defense and ridiculousness. Pernell Whitaker, Mike Tyson, Roberto Duran, Floyd Patterson, etc. – all prime examples. Easily some of my favorite fighters to watch, why? Because they could stand in front of their opponents all day and not get hit. THAT'S hitting without getting hit…

There's no skill in running away or holding your opponent. ANYONE can do that, Ali only got away with it because of his high status, he could do it right, and because of his list of competition (which overshadows how he beat most of that competition – running and holding).

Ali's an interesting character out of the ring. I could watch his interviews for hours on end and and still want more, and I admire him personally (at least in his non-radical days), but in the ring he was a joke. The only thing admirable about his ring skill and attributes was his ability to take punches in his rope-a-dope years. Other than that, he's nadda, zero, nothing, empty, not at all to be looked up to for his ring life.

If you like him or anyone else likes him, cool beans, but I find his in-ring performances a joke. I'm not going to hold it against anyone for having him as one of their favorites, but let's just get real."


(original quote)

and

"Ali came along with a style that had never been seen before. Hands held low, lots of foot movement and jabbing and running. The general public didn't like it at first, but after Clay won the championship from Liston in 1964, people began to believe. Ali would do absolutely nothing but run and duck and score a few jabs and still win the round… Later in his career, when he couldn't move like in his early career, he'd lay on the ropes (rope a dope) taking endless punches from just about everyone he fought and would throw an ineffective flurry at the end of the round and judges would give the round to him. Look back at some of those fights now and ask yourself, was he really the greatest? Several questionable decisions went to him on popularity alone. Don't shoot the messenger"

(original quote)

 and

"Saying Ali could/should mix with Klits is like saying Carl Lewis can outrun Usain Bolt, based on his legendary status alone."

(original quote)

 

"Muhammad Ali vs Joe Frazier shows how easy Ali would win against a Klitschko"

There are basically only 3 fights AliFants use to show the superiority of Ali against a Klitschko (aside from Ali's supposedly superior record as such):

  1. Ali vs Foreman
    Foreman had a similar KO'power like Wladimir Klitschko, but I mentioned above that the fight was inconclusive (to say the least).
  2. Ali vs Terrell
    Terrell had a similar height like Wladimir Klitschko, but Terrell is one the most featherfisted boxers.
  3. Ali vs Joe Frazier
    Used an an example by AliFants to show how Ali can overcome being hit and how great Ali's stamina is.

 

So let's take a short look at Frazier vs Ali.

In that fight Ali went life-or-death ("Fight of the century").

Yet,

  • Frazier was only 205 lbs (= 35-40 lbs lighter than the Klitschkos)
  • Frazier was one of the most featherfisted champs of all time based on his KO'performance in real heavyweight fights (he is #56 of 64 world champs, real[?] heavyweight KO'ratio lower than Chris Byrd), while the Klitschkos are some of the most powerful KO'ers
  • Frazier was only 5'11.5'' while the Klitschkos are huge
  • Frazier was blind on his left eye
  • Frazier was out-talled by Ali, out-reached and out-weighed, while the Klitschkos would out-tall, out-reach and out-weigh Ali
  • Frazier managed to knock Ali down and won the fight
  • Frazier was demolished easily by Foreman ("King Kong plays ping pong"), who is the only comparable fighter of the 1970s to Wladimir Klitschko (in terms of power)

So this fight objectively shows something that AliFants hate to read:

  1. In our times Klitschko vs Frazier would be a PROOF of how terrible the division is.
  2. Ali's performance against Frazier is a proof of what a limited boxer Ali was.
  3. That Ali struggled (and lost) to such a small handicapped featherfist like Frazier is actually a proof that Ali would lose against a Klitschko.
  4. That such a small handicapped featherfist like Frazier could actually be the world champion shows you how bad the golden era was.
  5. Frazier is incomparable to a Klitschko and fades in every important regard.

 

Yet, in the bizzare world of AliFants the reasoning goes like this:

  1. "Frazier is a terrific fighter, he was half-blind, yet look what problems he gave Ali!"
  2. "But Ali persevered! He overcame this terrific fighter! Therefore Ali is the greatest!"
  3. "Since he is the greatest he would beat Klitschko every time!"
  4. "And you know what? Frazier is so terrific he beat Ali, hence he would beat Klitschko, too!"
  5. "Whom have the Klitschkos fought? Ali has Frazier on his resume! The Klitschkos only fought bums!"

Only if you apply this deranged logic, Ali (or Frazier) have a chance against Klitschko.

And believe it or not, Frazier _IS_ one of the proofs of how easily Ali could beat Klitschko.

 

Ali's greatness is based mainly on his luck in rematches

See Muhammad Ali's legendary status is based mainly on his luck in rematches

 

Do those who claim "Muhammad Ali would win against Wladimir Klitschko" have any clue about boxing?

I have long suspected that fans of Muhammad Ali (and especially those who claim that Ali would beat a Klitschko) are some of the least knowledgeable boxing fans. They retreat into a fantasy past and have only little idea what works and doesn't in the boxing ring.

I once made a poll before the fight "David Haye vs Wladimir Klitschko" giving 4 options

(o) Haye will win against Wladimir. Ali would win against Wladimir.
(o) Haye will win against Wladimir. Ali would lose against Wladimir.
(o) Haye will lose against Wladimir. Ali would win against Wladimir.
(o) Haye will lose against Wladimir. Ali would lose against Wladimir.

And sure enough:

Of all the people who claimed that David Haye will win against Wladimir Klitschko 95% also claimed that Wladimir Klitschko would lose against Muhammad Ali.

Even I was astonished how far the delusion goes and how distorted the view of 1970s nostalgists is.

Obviously AliFants have no real clue

  • how to interpret records
  • how to predict likely outcomes
  • how to asses abilities/qualities/performances/dominance of boxers

and (since David Haye had a big mouth like Ali and TALKED his way into the fight against Wladimir Klitschko)

  • AliFants are probably fans of Muhammad "The Greatest" Ali, because they are easily swayed by boxers with a big mouth

 

My boxing blog every time a Klitschko wins…

Every time after a Klitschko beats YET ANOTHER opponent dominantly I notice a surge of visitors to my blog coming from search engines looking for "Klitschko vs Ali".

And in boxing forums the same old questions pop up: "How would Ali fare vs Klitschko?"

And every time these people gather together and pat each other on the back and repeat the same mantra "Yes, Klitschko DOMINATED yet another opponent, but he would LOSE against past-time greats."

In other words: Since Klitschkos humiliate their opponents (= they win round after round) boxing fans (mainly American boxing fans) have NOTHING LEFT except retreating into omnipotent delusions where the Klitschkos get KO'ed in every fight by the boxers of America 50-100 years ago.

It seems that Klitschkos not only dominate their opponents but also the fans of other boxers.

In other words: The statement "Wladimir Klitschko beats Muhammad Ali" is not a statement like "Rocky Marciano beats Muhammad Ali".

No, the FAINTEST idea, that Muhammad Ali might be the underdog against the Klitschkos is BLASPHEMY and an ATTACK on beliefs in one's glorious icons (Ali, Tyson).

Especially in Clay/Ali's case I often have the feeling that AliFants have some father-son relationship with Ali and the "Big Soviet threatens my daddy, thus I must protect my daddy!"

 

Summary

Muhammad Ali in his entire career has not seen REMOTELY such a power+size+experience combination like the Klitschkos.

On the other hand Ali's power+size+experience is nothing special (or even bad) compared to Klitschko's opponents.

Ali's figures are below average for nowadays boxing era: Median weight 212 lbs, median opponent weight 205 lbs, median KO'victim 197 lbs, height 6'3''.

Ali's style (e.g. "rope-a-dope", "making the opponent tire himself out on Ali's body") would not work against the Klitschkos.

Ali's only chance is to survive 12 rounds and win by decision, but how often does it happen that the Klitschkos even lose a single round?

After watching a lot of Ali fights I am not convinced. Ali struggles, Ali barely survives sometimes. Ali is lucky. He needs a lot of EFFORT to win against usually mediocre (or otherwise doubtful) opposition.

This is so far away from the dominance of the Klitschkos that I have no doubt that Ali would lose after being dominated. There is nothing in Ali's arsenal that could be effective, except maybe merry-go-rounding, which however wouldn't make Ali win the fight.

 

"Losing my religion" -OR- Why good-old-time nostalgists HATE this analysis

Why do good-old-time fetishists hate this article here?

Because it devalues a whole era since such an easily beatable guy like Ali could rule for 2 decades.

Because it completely ignores the mythological AURA of Ali and isn't impressed by Ali's out-of-the-ring performances. Both things (aura + out-ring achievements) is very dear to nostalgists (especially American nostalgists).

Because it exposes their myths as myths, and reinstates facts where necessary.

Additionally good-old-time nostalgists consider Ali's era not only "a good era" but the best era ("Golden Age of Heavyweight Boxing"). Thus Klitschko beating Ali not only questions an era BUT ALL AMERICAN eras:

To everybody who believes that

  • Ali would beat Tyson
  • Ali would beat Lennox Lewis
  • Ali would beat Larry Holmes

my analysis here means that Klitschko could beat these guys even more so. Thus for nostalgists this article demotes past American champions to plastic belt holders.

In the very moment good-old-time nostalgists would admit that "Klitschko can beat Ali" they lose 2 dogmas of their religion: 1) Ali is the best and 2) The Klitschko era sucks.

 

Am I a Klitschko nuthugger and a Muhammad Ali hater?

No.

Let me make it clear that this article is not an issue of being a Klitschko fanboy or an Ali hater.

Whether I am a Klitschko fan or not is not deductible from this article. If I would say "Riddick Bowe had a better jab than George Foreman" it doesn't make me a Bowe fan or a Foreman hater.

I am simply looking objectively at facts and deducting the most probable outcome.

I believe that many modern heavyweights (let alone the Klitschkos) are too strong for Ali.

Let me also make clear that I don't have anything against Clay/Ali, the boxer, as such, but against Clay/Ali, the mythological figure.

But since Clay/Ali himself is the driving force behind all myths ("I am the greatest", "When I left, boxing died", …) fact and fiction is so interwoven ("Clayology") that anyone who exposes these myths is automatically seen as a "Clay buster" and a "Muhammad Ali hater".

 

How likely is a win of Ali against a Klitschko?

Yes, you can have the opinion that Ali would win against the Klitschkos. But you have to understand that this is NEITHER supported by Clay/Ali's record NOR by his performance. Thus when you insist that Clay/Ali would win you base it 70% on fantasy (wishful thinking) and 10% on his record and 20% on his real world performance.

Just imagine yourself fighting against a smaller guy, who has a weak punch (while you have one of the most devastating punches of all times) and is less athletic than you and has less reach and whom you outweigh by 20-50 lbs of pure muscles.

It's simply extremely unlikely that your opponent could win. Here is what two boxing experts have to say

"Ali never fought anyone who had the size and talent of the Klitschko brothers. If he did the rope a dope, he would have been rope-a-done! He would have had to pick up his mouthpiece (with several teeth in it) from the tenth row after he woke up on his way to the ambulance. Ali was talented but he couldn’t beat the Klitschkos."
(Kurt Wolfheimer, Fight News)

-and-

"There are a lot of fighters post Ali who could beat him, including Klitschko, Lennox Lewis and Tyson. Interestingly, Roy Jones, Jr. as a heavy might even have given Ali trouble!"
(Keith Stoffer, boxing manager)

In my opinion either it would be something like Klitschko TKO6 Ali or Klitschko DQ Ali (for repeated holding, which is so typical for Ali). In my opinion Klitschko wins 19 out of 20 times (and I am generous here).

George Foreman, the best boxer of the 1970s, would have far greater chances than Ali.

 

What would Wladimir Klitschko say to this analysis here?

I don't know. Possibly he would disagree because I heard that he admires Muhammad Ali.

But as I wrote at Muhammad Ali Quotes -OR- Cassius Clay's megalomania: You CAN admire Ali for his showmanship. But his showmanship does not change his real world in-ring performance. And Ali's trashtalking would not save him from Klitschko's punch.

 

So how would Muhammad Ali fare in the Klitschko era?

Ali was good in the (what-they-called-then) heavyweight era of the 1960s. Since then the division changed dramatically. I simply doubt that Ali would be competitive in the current era. He would be a massive underdog against the Klitschkos.

I personally see 2 likely possibilities for Ali in the current Klitschko era:

  1. Muhammad Ali possibly could be useful as a sparring partner for boxers. Boxers could hire him to learn how to overcome stink 'n' run boxers since Ali (as I wrote above) was a runner (= always trying to keep a distance) and a stinker (arm holding, insulting, thumbing, etc..) ("Dirty Clay", "Clay as Clay can", "Sting like a bee").
  2. The most probable development is however that he would fight as a cruiserweight and not as a heavyweight.
    You can see from this article here how the heavyweight division changed thus Ali probably would be a cruiser nowadays (if he could keep his eating habits under control).
    Since Ali's speed (compared to modern cruisers) is rather slow (yes, the weight class 175-200 advanced, too) he'd be probably a B-level cruiser ("Stink like a B"). But I may be mistaken here. Please comment below if you happen to disagree about Clay/Ali's chances against modern cruisers.

Since there is no draft nowadays in the USA and other circumstances are missing, too (Malcolm X, Zaire, racism, etc…) he would be pretty unknown, I guess. Possibly he wouldn't even become a Muslim (how many celebrities converted to Islam after 9/11?), and if he'd become a Muslim he'd probably not join the Nation of Islam, thus he wouldn't be named after a brutal war lord and slaveholder ("Muhammad Ali"). So Clay's life in our times would be very different.

 

 

Lennox Lewis vs Muhammad Ali

This article is mainly about Muhammad Ali.

This article is not about Wladimir Klitschko.

I barely feature any statistics of the Klitschkos here.

This article is about an objective assessment of Muhammad Ali, and how the hype is not supported by reality, and how bad Ali performed in some areas.

Therefore: Would the current world champ not be Wladimir Klitschko but, say, Lennox Lewis, then I would come to the same conclusion: Against Lennox, too, Ali would be the underdog because there is nothing in Ali's record that shows a clear advantage for Ali.

 

 

So who could beat a Prime Wladimir Klitschko if not Muhammad Ali?

At heavyweight anybody can beat anybody.

So spare me funny remarks about RoCoLa (Ross Puritty, Corrie Sanders and Lamon Brewster).

And spare me funny remarks about pre-prime performances or sub-par exceptions (flukes).

I am talking about "Who would win against PRIME Klitschko most of the time?"

In my personal view ONLY the following boxers would have a chance against a prime Klitschko:

  • Lennox Lewis. The outcome would be probably decided by whose corner Emmanuel Steward decides to be in (Steward is the trainer of both Wladimir and Lennox)
  • Vitali Klitschko
  • Larry Holmes
  • George Foreman (if Foreman is rrrreally lucky)
  • Mike Tyson (must be even luckier)
  • Some others could survive (= not get KO'ed) by running or by having a granite chin (e.g. Evan Fields)

In this order.

That's about it.

Muhammad Ali vs Wladimir Klitschko - Fact-based analysis and prediction, 3.3 out of 5 based on 67 ratings
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Comments (465)

  • Honza says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Sowe Divu]
    #143 Honza (2011-04-18th)

    You are disgrace to the boxing.

    • Steve says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Sepi Wuxa]
      #7898 Steve (2015-06-14th)

      Ali is the Greatest of all time! You have never put your life on the line or had your lungs burn from exhaustion so bad that you could taste death in your mouth. ALI FOUGHT EVERYONE, ONCE, TWICE, EVEN THRICE. I can disprove everything you wrote here in two sentences because I am a former boxer and sparred with Ali and I weighed 228 lbs. You are a pugilistic idiot and need to SHUT YOUR MOUTH!

  • This is a joke says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Kuna Jydo]
    #166 This is a joke (2011-04-27th)

    Yet another biased, bullsh*t article. Start following a new sport as you know nothing about boxing you Klitschko worshiping joke. Ali by wide UD or TKO. Klitschko has nothing that would bother Ali. Learn about boxing styles and you might understand that it's constant pressure and a murderous left hook that are the keys to beating Ali not jab, jab, clinch, jab, clinch, clinch, clinch.

    • Admin says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #195 Admin (2011-04-28th)
      Klitschko has nothing that would bother Ali.

      Hmm, except reach, size, weight, power, more experience against heavyweights, a gold medal at superheavyweight…

      • This is a joke says:
        flag
        [ip2username: Kuna Jydo]
        #212 This is a joke (2011-05-01st)

        Yes because the Klitschko's size and power will bother a man with one of the greatest chins in boxing besides Jake LaMotta. Before you mention Henry Cooper i will mention Brewster, Sanders and Purrity. Ali never got knocked out and beat boxers that where ten times better than Wlad or Vitali. How the f*ck does Klitschko have more experience against Heavys? Ali was not, no matter how you try to justify it a cruiser.

        • Admin says:
          flag
          [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
          #218 Admin (2011-05-01st)
          because the Klitschko's size and power will bother a man with one of the greatest chins in boxing

          Ali's chin is pure speculation. He was champ in a featherfisted era. He never met anyone as hard and efficiently punching as Wladimir or Vitali. You can not deduct from Ali's performance against fighters like Ken Norton or Joe Frazier how good his chin is against the best KOers of all times.
          Additionally Wladimir Klitschko has KOed more previously unKOed opponents than any other real heavyweight champ. Wladimir Klitschko is a SPECIALIST in KOing guys like Ali.

          Ali was not, no matter how you try to justify it a cruiser.

          Ali, won the LIGHT-heavyweight gold medal.
          Ali fought 15x at 201 lbs (or below).
          Ali fought 25x opponents who were 201 lbs (or below) (at bout).
          Ali fought 48x opponents who were cruisers or former cruisers.

          Just meditate over the image in the article above and tell me how such a "boy" could withstand a Klitschko. Ali in that image looks even weaker than light-heavyweights nowadays.

    • Tommo says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5766 Tommo (2013-03-29th)

      No I think the author has a pretty good idea about boxing. The keys to beating Ali is to be better than him. Something not beyond many HW pro boxers today.

  • This is a joke says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Kuna Jydo]
    #167 This is a joke (2011-04-27th)

    Also, i want to point this out from your terrible, terrible analysis – 'Ali is possibly clairvoyant. I give him that, too.'. You sir are a moron. I would also like some proof about your frankly horrendous and bigoted allegations about Ali apparently threatening opponents with terrorism from his 'muslim friends'. Also, where are your sources for him apparently rigging his early fights?for poisoning Foreman? As for Chris Byrd and Eddie Chambers having faster hands????? that is obviously a joke, right? Also, when Ali fought Liston he was 210 lbs and his optimum 'dancing weight' once he got a bit older was around 215. You have proven yourself to be a Klitschko nut hugger that is jealous of the fact that the Klits will never be remembered as great champions like Ali, Foreman, Frazier etc.

    • Admin says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #196 Admin (2011-04-28th)
      I would also like some proof about your frankly horrendous and bigoted allegations about Ali apparently threatening opponents with terrorism

      How about this one:
      "I have a few things to say. Not for the public but to confuse my opponent. Like I might say to a white fighter: 'Listen,' (while I'm in a clinch), 'the Black Panthers are outside. You don't stand a damn chance tonight, boy. They'll burn your house down'"
      (Muhammad Ali)

      As for Chris Byrd and Eddie Chambers having faster hands????? that is obviously a joke, right?

      No, it's not. Ali was a slow cruiser.

      You have proven yourself to be a Klitschko nut hugger

      I pre-answered it already at [post=932]

      that is jealous of the fact that the Klits will never be remembered as great champions like Ali, Foreman, Frazier etc.

      Frazier was a world champ for 2 years. He is pretty unknown. No comparison to the Klitschkos who are world famous. Ali's legacy is sinking fast due to the lack of dominance. His fan base is more and more restricted to Americans alone. Foreman is the best boxer of the 1970s.

      • This is a joke says:
        flag
        [ip2username: Kuna Jydo]
        #211 This is a joke (2011-05-01st)

        then you obviously never leave the house as i live in a pretty remote part of the UK and non boxing fans all know who Ali and Frazier are but none of them know who the Klitschko's are. They are famous in Germany, Ukraine and amongst boxing fans who all hate them except for biased assh*les like you.

        • This is a joke says:
          flag
          [ip2username: Kuna Jydo]
          #213 This is a joke (2011-05-01st)

          oh and how the hell are you going to justify that Ali was in any way slow? Nevermind a slow cruiser, your article is trash, as are your heavyweight champions. They have already been exposed.

          • Admin says:
            flag
            [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
            #219 Admin (2011-05-01st)

            Actually as a cruiser he wasn't slow. He was slower than today's cruisers of course but he wasn't slow.

            Ali, when he was 200+ lbs was an overweight cruiser. You will have great difficulties finding a picture where you can actually see his six-pack.

            Now as I pointed out at [post=126] I don't mind chubby heavyweights AT ALL.
            But Ali's FAT SLOWED HIM DOWN. Thus Ali was not "a slow cruiser" but "a slow overweight cruiser".

          • Matt says:
            flag
            [ip2username: Jimu Waxy]
            #7860 Matt (2015-04-22nd)

            The truth hurts I guess. Everything the author has said is right. Training techniques have changed over the years and are more effective now, hence world records are broken all the time. Vitali, not Wlad would have beaten Ali comfortably. He only lost due to a cut and an injury and should have gone undefeated. Ali was the best in his time but lets be real, times change and he would be tiny in this era.

        • Admin says:
          flag
          [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
          #220 Admin (2011-05-01st)
          They are famous in Germany, Ukraine and amongst boxing fans who all hate them except for biased assh*les like you.

          Thank you for proving my point that the heavyweight division is mainly hated in the USA and UK.

  • Honza says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Xisu Napy]
    #234 Honza (2011-05-03rd)

    This article is nothing else than disgrace to the golden age of boxing. Where are you from man, that you love Klitschko so much? :-x

    • Admin says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #235 Admin (2011-05-03rd)

      Wow!! A disgrace to an entire age?
      What facts do you disagree with?
      Is there something in Clay/Ali's arsenal I forgot?
      And how in the world do you consider me a Klitschko fan? I never stated anything of the sort.

  • Honza says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Xisu Napy]
    #239 Honza (2011-05-04th)

    It is clear fact, that you are big Klitschko fan. Making excuses for all his lost a make Ali a bum, which he was not. Even Klitschko trainer Manny Stuard knows, that Ali was great fighter.

    • Admin says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #240 Admin (2011-05-04th)

      1) I do not make any excuses for Klitschko's losses, and especially not in this article.

      2) Ali was not a bum. I never ever claimed that and I never ever will.

      3) As I write at the top of this article, this is not an achievement comparison or a performance comparison but a toe-to-toe speculation.

      4) That Klitschko's trainer considers Ali or Joe Louis to be great (or greatest) doesn't mean that they would win against a Klitschko, especially since even Manny admits "In their own ways they both (Ali and Joe Louis) were the 2 greatest, I think, heavyweight champions, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they could have still beaten a prime Larry Holmes or maybe even a George Foreman." I analyzed Manny's reasoning at [post=1235]

      • Tommo says:
        flag
        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5611 Tommo (2013-03-24th)

        Ali was not a bum. He was a great fighter in his own era but not a dominant one. He could have been a good cruiserweight today but would have been a tomato can at heavyweight. I think that about sums up the article. However there is much in all these articles to suggest that admin is a Klitscho fan, it is ok just admit it lol ;)

  • Honza says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Rypo Lezi]
    #241 Honza (2011-05-04th)

    So stop talk trash abou Muhammad okay? And Joe Frazier was champion more than two years, but I think, that I am just wasting my time with you. Yo are really Ali hater. Why? He was not real ko machine like George, but he always found a way to win and never lose head, even when he was losing. That is not something you can say about Klitschkos.

    • Admin says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #244 Admin (2011-05-04th)
      So stop talk trash abou Muhammad okay?

      I don't trashtalk. I deliver facts and speculations based on facts. If you have any counter-facts then you are welcome to share them.

      • Tommo says:
        flag
        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5612 Tommo (2013-03-24th)

        One positive thing that you should have put about Ali in your article would have been regarding his ring IQ which can't be measured well with stats. It was his prime weapon against George whom if he hadn't defeated would have nullified any claim to Ali being the "greatest". His ability to out wit his opponents and beat some otherwise better opposition through unconventional means was a unique trait of his and contributed greatly to his success.

  • Honza says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Xisu Napy]
    #248 Honza (2011-05-05th)

    Then watch third fight between Ali and Frazier and tell me something about featherfists or that Ali was slow at that time ( his weight at that fight was 224 lbs). You already proved a lot of disrespect to legendary fighters. Klitschkos are very good boxers no question about it. Good bye man. And that first expert is probably German.

  • Honza says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Xisu Napy]
    #249 Honza (2011-05-05th)

    With Wembley Stadium full to the rafter with fans cheering for Henry Cooper, the stage was set. Clay entered the ring wearing a red robe and crown, and he began regally. For the first three rounds he destroyed Cooper, who was fit and game, but simply outclassed. Clay began clowning around, every time Cooper was on the verge of falling, he would step back and start dancing. Bill Faversham shouted at angelo Dundee to stop him, but to no avail.

    That is something about fight with Cooper. I really do not know, where you found that Cooper was winning on points.

    • Admin says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #251 Admin (2011-05-06th)
      I really do not know, where you found that Cooper was winning on points.

      I copy'n'pasted it from wikipedia, but it's irrelevant that cooper was winning on points anyway. Has nothing to do with the subject of Ali's chin.

  • Honza says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Gapy Xoze]
    #260 Honza (2011-05-07th)

    On wikipedia? Now I know what is wrong. But your blog is suppose to be objective. Wikipedie is often incorrect my friend. Tell Joe Frazier that He was featherfist and we will see. :wink:

  • Honza says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Gapy Xoze]
    #261 Honza (2011-05-07th)

    And one last thing. You know what means that Cooper was outclassed by Muhammad? That means he was losing whole match.

  • flag
    [ip2username: Xyro Kepi]
    #272 Jesse Kaellis (2011-05-10th)

    Ali

    I learned dice at COS. Career Opportunities School. The original location was on Vegas Blvd. where it splits into Main; right about there; heading downtown.

    I was working my second break-in joint, the Golden Gate, downtown on Fremont Street, and the school had relocated to Fremont just up from the El Cortez. There was a burger joint next to the school called the Circus Circus Burgers. They had a reputation for good hamburgers.

    I was in my school on my day off, trying to get my second game going, which was Black Jack.
    A kid comes running in, one of the students, "Mohammad Ali is out there!"
    We all go running out. Ali is across the street. He had stopped to get a hamburger. He's standing by an older tan Mercedes sedan. He’s wearing a grey suit and he has a small entourage. Like two men around him.
    He's a big man but not as tall as you might think; about 6'3". But he's kind of slumped over. He is broad beamed; really big through the shoulders.

    There are people lined up and he's got these Islam pamphlets and they are already signed and he left a space for the names. He does that every morning. There must be thousands of these things out there.
    I get in line. Some black girls are ahead of me. He's flirting and joking and they are delighted. He kisses one of them.
    When I get up there in line I'm standing there looking at him. He asks my name. But he is kind of perfunctory. I'm looking at him like you might look at a specimen on a slide.

    His eyes are flat brown and cloudy. He is moving and talking very slowly. You can sense the intelligence under the massive neurological damage.

    I get my precious autograph and move off. This was 1988. He was still a decent looking specimen. I mean compared to what he is now. I was looking at this guy and feeling a kind of revulsion. And I mean I have been involved in boxing all my adult life; as an amateur fighter, licensed second and registered coach. I adhere to the sport.
    Anyway, nothing I can say would really give new insight. No fresh takes here.

    I wonder if the people that are making a living saint out of this guy, that slobber all over him, I wonder if they ever look at him and feel revulsion and then shame for the revulsion they feel. Like I did.

  • Talha says:
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    [ip2username: Tuja Gyvo]
    #280 Talha (2011-05-13th)

    I have watched all of Alis fights. Very long article but lots of manipulation
    You mix his later fights with his 60's fights by saying he did not have stamina
    Ali vs Sonny liston was not about running but his great reflexes and foot work
    Sonny liston threw 45 punches in 1st round and only landed 3. ALI SLIPPED 43 PUNCHES PUT OF 45 PUNCHES!!!!

    And you come here and say he didn't have reflexes. You are full of bullsh*t and very one sided article with no real proof.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #281 Admin (2011-05-13th)
      You mix his later fights with his 60's fights by saying he did not have stamina

      Huh? I claimed the opposite: Ali had great stamina. I would never claim "Ali had no stamina". Of all the things that I claim "No stamina" would be the last thing. I don't know where you read this from.

      Ali vs Sonny liston was not about running but his great reflexes and foot work

      Watch Ali vs Liston II. A masterpiece in running away.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Woke Bigu]
    #313 Honza (2011-05-23rd)

    In second fight with Sonny Muhammad showed how quick and moveable he is. there is really a lot of manipulation but what I just can´t stand is calling Ali a cheater! George Foreman was poisoned? No he was in great shape and also said that he hit Ali with best shots. Only wrong with George was that whole Zaire was behind Muhammad. Also with first Cooper fight there is no evidence about cheating.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #316 Admin (2011-05-23rd)
      In second fight with Sonny Muhammad showed how quick and moveable he is.

      No, Ali showed us how static he is by not going to his corner.

      there is really a lot of manipulation

      Please be so friendly to correct me.

      but what I just can´t stand is calling Ali a cheater!

      Well, there was an official investigation into Ali's suspicious series of predictions of the outcomes. You can't deny it.

      George Foreman was poisoned? No he was in great shape

      He was in great shape AND possibly poisoned.

      and also said that he hit Ali with best shots.

      And had Ali's trainer not manipulated the ropes Foreman might even have won.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Woke Bigu]
    #314 Honza (2011-05-23rd)

    I also hate those stupid lies like Joe Frazier was champion for 2 years. How old are you that you say such a crap? Maybe you shut watch Lewis vs. Vitalij fight. Last round Vitalij just holding everytime he saw Lewis thowing punch.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #317 Admin (2011-05-23rd)
      I also hate those stupid lies like Joe Frazier was champion for 2 years. How old are you that you say such a crap?

      How is that a lie? He won the WBA/WBC belt in February 1970 and lost it in January 1973. That's not even 3 years.

      HMaybe you shut watch Lewis vs. Vitalij fight. Last round Vitalij just holding everytime he saw Lewis thowing punch.

      What has this whatsoever to do with this topic?

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Kaxy Tome]
    #315 Honza (2011-05-23rd)

    I had here one comment where it is. You deleted it? :evil:

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #318 Admin (2011-05-23rd)

      I don't delete comments. Ever. Except for Vi*gra spam bots etc.

      Your input is highly welcome. In fact it is so welcome that I offer you to specify your Flattr username so you can earn money with your comments.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Jylo Geli]
    #319 Honza (2011-05-25th)

    He won title first in 1968. Joe defeated Buster Mathis!!

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Jylo Geli]
    #320 Honza (2011-05-25th)

    And I never ever heard something about poisoning. But maybe you found it on wikipedie. Calling Ali static is an insult. Look how moveable are Klitschkos.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #322 Admin (2011-05-25th)
      And I never ever heard something about poisoning.

      Seriously? Where have you been living?

      Calling Ali static is an insult. Look how moveable are Klitschkos.

      Obviously they are movable enough to barely get hit. Something that you cannot be said about Ali who gets every centimeter of his face covered even against crappy opponents (except in the beginning of his career, where he was/fought cruisers)

      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5725 Tommo (2013-03-28th)

        Yeah his reflexes are terrible in the 70's. Ali is most hit champ ever whereas Klits are least hit ever. No comparison there.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Pyvo Redi]
    #324 Honza (2011-05-25th)

    Where have you been living? George Foreman said that Ali is the greatest oponent he ever faced and you say such a sh*t!!! You really start to piss me of Klitschko nuthugger. You want take credit from all Ali great victories and be serious? I accept you must be from eastern europe.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #327 Admin (2011-05-25th)
      Where have you been living? George Foreman said that Ali is the greatest oponent he ever faced and you say such a sh*t!!!

      And Ali was INDEED the greatest opponent he ever faced, so? Doesn't change one fact I post about Ali here.

      You really start to piss me of Klitschko nuthugger. You want take credit from all Ali great victories and be serious?

      My statements are not shocking because they are outrageous, but because they are contrary to the usual propaganda.

    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5726 Tommo (2013-03-28th)

      Foreman faced atleast 3 opponents better than Ali. He beat Moorer for the title by punchers chance who was better than Ali and fought Tommy Morrison and Evander Holyfield and lost (Tommy who could have immediately KO'd Ali and Evander who is more skilled, durable and tougher than Ali in every way. Also Briggs who Foreman lost to may have had too much of a punch for Clay.

    • primevsprime says:
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      [ip2username: Puta Jyto]
      #7897 primevsprime (2015-06-14th)

      It's quite obvious this twat is from Ukraine or eastern Europe or somewhere. Thats the only place in the world men are willing to give blowjobs to the robot brothers. Prime Ali would have danced around klitchko(s) and flurried them with punches. Nobody likes the klitchkos, except eastern european nuthuggers like yourself, what were you even thinking; that you were going to get bounty points for wladimir or something? Dude im sure youve realized now what a twat you made out of yourself. Your article changed no ones mind or perception, try something better like how prime mayweather would beat prine ali. Looool.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Pyvo Redi]
    #325 Honza (2011-05-25th)

    And you also said that all Klitschko kos are absolutely valid. What about Puritty vs Vitalij. Such a stupid stopagge. It seemed that they have to save Vitalij more than Puritty. But I think you will be still Klitschko nuthugger.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #329 Admin (2011-05-25th)
      What about Puritty vs Vitalij. Such a stupid stopagge.

      It's a valid TKO. Completely one-sided beating. Nobody thinks that anything about it was fishy.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Pyvo Redi]
    #326 Honza (2011-05-25th)

    But you now what. Lets be friends and not argue anymore. It seems that you really don´t like Muhammad and his era so be it. I don´t like Klitschkos and I think they are boring. That? my opinion. Have a nice day Klitschko fan.

  • GOAT says:
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    [ip2username: Tiju Pajy]
    #336 GOAT (2011-05-26th)

    This is complete bull sh*t in every aspect

  • matt says:
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    [ip2username: Xitu Kajy]
    #341 matt (2011-05-29th)

    An interesting analysis. First where I agree. Ali was and is overrated. Ali's holding was outrageous. I actually found your site because I googled "Ali holding Foreman" while watching the Ali-Foreman fight on demand. How could the ref let him hold Foreman behind the head like that? If he did not get away with the holding he never would have accomplished all he did, although his guts and guile still would have made him a champ, in all likelihood.

    He was a true cruiser/light heavy. Ali in that weight range today would be a perennial contender at least, I would love to see him at 190-205 fight Roy Jones at 185-200.

    My disagreements start with your seeming contention that heavyweights have gotten better and that the Foreman's etc. could not compete. Foreman was winning WORLD TITLES IN THE HEAVYWEIGHT DIVISION WHEN LEWIS AND BOWE AND HOLYFIELD WERE IN THE SAME DIVISION AND IN THEIR PRIME. THAT SAYS IT ALL AS FAR AS ERA V. ERA. You simply can't argue that the "golden era" was crap just based on Foreman's later success alone, if that is in fact part and parcel of your argument.

    Most significantly, your analysis of Ali is based on a fundamental flaw – a flaw that people making such ERA TO ERA comparisons often ignore. IF ALI FOUGHT NOWADAYS HE WOULD BE EXPOSED TO NEW AND IMPROVED TRAINING METHODS PLUS ALL THAT HAS BEEN LEARNED ABOUT BOXING AND THE HUMAN BODY IN THE PAST 40 YEARS. THIS WOULD MAKE HIM A BETTER PHYSICAL SPECIMEN – SCARY FOR ALI'S OPPONENTS GIVEN HIS STAMINA AND GUTS – AND, SIMPLY, A BETTER BOXER. LIKEWISE, PUT KLITSCHKO IN EARLY 20TH CENTURY PRIZEFIGHTS AND HE WOULD BE DRINKING VODKA REGULARLY DURING TRAINING RATHER THAN DOING "DRAGO-ESQUE" TRAINING. IF HE FOUGHT IN THAT ERA HE WOULD NOT BE THE SAME GUY. AND HOW MANY OF THESE "GREAT" OR "SOLID" BOXERS OF THE 1990'S AND 2000'S WERE ON PED DURING THEIR MOST IMPRESSIVE WORK? IT IS LIKE SOMEONE SAYING GORDIE HOWE COULD NEVER SKATE LIKE GRETZKY WITHOUT CONSIDERING THE CRAPPY ICE AND BACKWARDS SKATES HE WAS WORKING WITH. YOU NEED TO TRY AND FACTOR THESE THINGS IN. DO NOT BE INTIMIDATED BY THE UNKNOWN. NOT ADDRESSING THE TECHNOLOGY ISSUE DELEGITIMIZES YOUR ARGUMENTS.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #342 Admin (2011-05-29th)
      My disagreements start with your seeming contention that heavyweights have gotten better and that the Foreman's etc. could not compete.

      No disagreements here.

      Foreman was the best of the 1970s boxers and could compete in any era.

      You simply can't argue that the "golden era" was crap just based on Foreman's later success alone, if that is in fact part and parcel of your argument.

      If a half-blind can be world champ and a guy with Parkinson's wins the world title against a 6-0 bum then the era _IS_ doubtful.

      Now, even if you consider it a good era, the fact remains that there is a huge question mark hanging above it, because Soviet weren't allowed to compete.

      Just look with what ease the (ex-)Soviets took over AS SOON AS ALLOWED. I mention this at [post=211] where I point out that Tyson's and RJJ's losses had a strong non-US component.

      Most significantly, your analysis of Ali is based on a fundamental flaw – a flaw that people making such ERA TO ERA comparisons often ignore. IF ALI FOUGHT NOWADAYS HE WOULD BE EXPOSED TO NEW AND IMPROVED TRAINING METHODS PLUS ALL THAT HAS BEEN LEARNED ABOUT BOXING AND THE HUMAN BODY IN THE PAST 40 YEARS.

      I didn't forget this. I mention this at [post=488] in the time machine section.

      This is kind of a moot argument because it adds an additional layer of speculation. And I prefer to take what was factually THERE and not speculate about "If Tyson was born today he would be taller".

      I argue as close to facts as possible. I take the REAL ALI and compare it to the REAL KLITSCHKO. And more importantly: Those who claim that Ali would win do also not consider modern techniques but simply argue based on what they see.

      Additionally even nowadays there are fat boxers thus Ali (who was reluctant to train) would not have necessarily looked better.

  • matt says:
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    [ip2username: Zagy Joxe]
    #343 matt (2011-05-30th)

    Ok the response clarifies – for me – your arguments and is reasonable except for the last part. "If Tyson were born today he would be taller"? Huh? No, actually he would not be taller; the overwhelming odds are that he would be precisely the same size.

    It is an additional layer of speculation, and if you choose to ignore the issue that is fine, I understand – you have to draw a line somewhere. But for me that speculation is a neccesary part of any such argument (and the argument is not that Ali would "look" better, it is that he would look better because he was in better shape, and thus he would fight better). You cite that Ali was reluctant to train. In this era, if he were reluctant to train, he would have to retire as a prizefighter. If he went at it like the greats today, which he would have had to to avoid getting killed or retiring to save himself, he would be a better fighter than he was then. The PED thing definitely has application in the era v. era issue also.

    It just drives me batty for someone to say, "just look at the film, Jim Brown runs maybe a 4.65, therefore he could never play in today's NFL." NO. THAT IS NOT TRUE. DO THESE PEOPLE REALLY BELIEVE THAT HUMANS HAVE EVOLVED PHYSICALLY TO SUCH AN AMAZING DEGREE IN JUST 30 YEARS THAT THE FASTEST FOOTBALL PLAYERS "BECAME" WAY FASTER THAN THEY HAD BEEN? IT IS TECHNOLOGY, TRAINING, CULTURE IN THE SPORT AND THE COUNTRY. IF JIM BROWN WERE PLAYING HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL IN OHIO IN THE 1990'S HE WOULD HAVE DONE MORE TRAINING IN ONE OFFSEASON THAN HE DID IN PROBABLY HIS WHOLE CAREER AS A PRO! 6-2 230 AND LOOK DA FK OUT, THAT MAN WOULD BE RUNNING A 4.4 BY THE TIME HE WAS IN HIS PRIME AT 21-28 AND WOULD BE AN ADRIAN PETERSON TYPE. Same thing for Ali, except he was not as dominant to begin with and his lack of size would have been such an issue that he may have had to drop weight to fight at a more appropriate level were he around today.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Mypo Zepi]
    #344 Honza (2011-05-30th)

    From I read above. It seems that you must be from eastern europe. And I was right that you are Ali hater and also Frazier hater. That is not nice.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #346 Admin (2011-05-30th)
      From I read above. It seems that you must be from eastern europe.

      I am not.

      And I was right that you are Ali hater and also Frazier hater.

      I am not.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Rypo Lezi]
    #348 Honza (2011-05-30th)

    Than why you are so pesimist about them? And I wanna ask you about Larry Holmes? He was great even in older age. He faced Evander Holyfield,Oliver Mccall and Ray Mercer.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #349 Admin (2011-05-31st)
      Than why you are so pesimist about them?

      Because they are terribly overrated, yet the same guys who overrate them are the ones who underrate modern heavies.

      And I wanna ask you about Larry Holmes? He was great even in older age. He faced Evander Holyfield,Oliver Mccall and Ray Mercer.

      He LOST to McCall and Evan Fields. There is no need mentioning these fights.

      However, Larry Holmes has greater chances against Klitschko than Ali.

      Ali would be KOed within 6. Holmes would be KOed within 10.

      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5728 Tommo (2013-03-28th)

        Yeah Holmes was great boxer. He kind of bridged the gap between the "backyard boxing" of the golden age and true professional boxing. He was really the first of the modern age which is wrongly credited to Tyson. If Tyson had met Holmes in his prime I believe we would have seen very competitive fight.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Jylo Geli]
    #350 Honza (2011-05-31st)

    I think you really underated Ali and Holmes. They were not boxers that could be only punching bag for Klitschkos. Both of them were really good and brave. And why you call Evander Evan Fields? Are you also Holyfield hater or shut I call you hater of All Time Greats? Do not tell me that Evander Holyfield would be koed as well because when he challenged Klitschkos in 98-99 they ducked him. Also Vitalij constantly ducked Rahman. Both brothers work as a tag team. Their deals with chalenggers goes like this: if you beat Wlad than you must face Vitalij and if you are that good that you beat Vitalij than you have to fight Wlad again. Calling Leon Spinks bum is okay but he won olympic gold medal so in 1978 he was solid fighter and than become a real bum.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #489 Admin (2011-07-03rd)
      I think you really underated Ali and Holmes. They were not boxers that could be only punching bag for Klitschkos. Both of them were really good and brave.

      All boxers are brave. Stepping into the ring, completely alone and risking one's life is one of the bravest thing to do.

      And why you call Evander Evan Fields?

      I call Evan Fields Evan Fields for obvious reasons.

      Do not tell me that Evander Holyfield would be koed as well

      I believe that he would be KOed as well, but I am open to the possibility of a non-KO, because he has obviously one of the hardest chins of all time.

      Their deals with chalenggers goes like this: if you beat Wlad than you must face Vitalij and if you are that good that you beat Vitalij than you have to fight Wlad again.

      You got it the other way around: They GUARANTEE their opponents a shot at both Klitschkos, should the opponents win against one Klitschko. This is the most fan-friendly and mouth-watering contract the boxing world has ever seen, let alone their opponents have ever seen, since a fight of a Klitschko conqueror against the other Klitschko would produce millions for the opponents.

      These are the best boxing contracts the world has ever witnessed and name 1 boxing fan, just 1 fan, who wouldn't love to see, say "David Haye beating Wladimir followed by David Haye vs Vitali".

      It's unbelievable how you try to make cr*ap out of gold.

      Calling Leon Spinks bum is okay but he won olympic gold medal so in 1978 he was solid fighter and than become a real bum.

      Tells you how bad Olympics was back in Ali's times.

    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5729 Tommo (2013-03-28th)

      He calls him Evan fields because of the steroid scandal, bit of a low blow, especially since Holy was a top champ/boxer/HW by ANY measure, certainly competition for Wladimir and TOO much competition when Holy challenged him. On first point, Holmes might be competitive with Wladimir but Ali not.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Zura Pyso]
    #352 Honza (2011-05-31st)

    what? You lost your arguments Klitschko fan?

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Gapy Xoze]
    #368 Honza (2011-06-02nd)

    Any other boxer I can think of would have punched Foreman on his way down. That Ali didn't is not a sign of his greatness but of his typical cowardly reluctance to punch.
    You know that George Foreman said complete oppposite? And not only because he and Muhammad are friends. :lol:

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #488 Admin (2011-07-03rd)

      Non-engaging, withdrawn punching, non-punching is typical for Ali (not only in the Foreman fight) and I just used the Foreman situation as an easy-to-find example.

      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5730 Tommo (2013-03-28th)

        No that is wrong admin, he didn't have to punch him on way down. He already knew he'd won. The documentary had it right, he didn't want to cheapen it.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Gygo Gebi]
    #371 Honza (2011-06-03rd)

    You are from same country as Vitalij right? So that's why you like Klitschkos so much. Nothing wrong with that but your article is full of hate against American boxers ( e.g. George and Mike). That's not nice from you.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #487 Admin (2011-07-03rd)

      No, I am not from the same country as Vitali Klitschko. In fact I am not even an Eastern European, nor do I live in Eastern Europe, nor in Germany (the supposed backyard of the Klitschkos), nor in America or UK.

  • Anonymous says:
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    [ip2username: Doze Didu]
    #485 (2011-07-03rd)

    This guy is overly full of sh*t.Every article is a Klitschko suck up.

  • Anonymous says:
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    [ip2username: Mome Wimu]
    #498 (2011-07-06th)

    The very idea that you can take a man from one era, put in him in the ring with a man from another and make some kind of absolute statement about who is better is ridiculous. If you put baby Vlad in the ring with Ali in 1980 Ali would win, if you took Mohammed as he is currently and placed him in the ring with…get the point?
    You say that 70 s fans judge their era by an unreal standard, you judge it by today which is just as uneven. You can't separate these things out, and you don't really know who would win as you'd need God to set it up for you, and then back off and let the fight happen.
    I do find this entertaining though, not like the Haye Vlad fight. You do seem to do your research for which you probably deserve points.

  • Alham says:
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    [ip2username: Tegi Tupa]
    #501 Alham (2011-07-07th)

    If you say you are objective then i have to say you are a hypocrit.
    You are a hypocrit as long as you dont write a article about the weaknesses of Klitschko and i am sure you will find plenty. Just use the same motivation and the same form of inspiration as you used for this article and trust me you will write a BOOK, make some cash and get famous.
    (thank me later for that just send me 5% and we are cool. :-D )
    Be so honest and analyse the fights of the Klitschko brothers and their (hold on its getting ironic…) magnificent opponents. Analyse their boxing strategy… (dont worry you will get it in 5 min.) and begin to speculate about deals, money and contracts which made before the fights.

    The reason why you should do that is because you compare those two diffrent eras, which is todally senseless. You can only analyse Ali in his time and you can only alalyse the Klitschkos in their time, which is today. And analyse both diffrent times seperated from each other. Comparing those eras is just stupid, because of the 30-40 years gap.
    Many things has been improved in any kind of sport. So of course the Klitschkos would have unfair advantages.

    There is also one thing i want to say at last.

    Muhammad Ali said, that he is the greatest of all time. And the world agreed.

    But would the world agree to Klitschko if he would say that he is the greatest of all time?
    Not even Klitschko himself would agree….

  • Trevor Dunne says:
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    [ip2username: Ligu Lany]
    #537 Trevor Dunne (2011-07-19th)

    First of all well done on a well researched opinion. That's it though. NOBODY can say for sure who the better boxer was/is. If the Klitschko brothers were around in the 60'/70's they would be very different boxers in terms of weight and lifestlye. Your opinion is a hypotheses- i.e. it can never be proven. A KO% has nothing to do with how good a boxer is/was. Who wins is what matters. The Klitschkos are great fighters and so was Ali. End of story.

    You out sucka.. :-o

  • Avi says:
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    [ip2username: Paxy Wobe]
    #606 Avi (2011-07-29th)

    You talk an awful lot. Problem is you don't know what you are talking about. The Klitschkos are really good and probably great in the current sad heavyweight division. Ali beats either of them easily and probably by KO or TKO, not even a decision. Same for Frazier, Foreman, Holmes and Holyfield.

    Some corrections:

    Dundee actually tightened the ropes before the fight, not loosened them. The extreme heat and humidity made the ropes loose. Dundee didn't even know Ali was going to use that strategy. Ali was not lucky, he had plans a, b, c and maybe even d & f. Even if he had danced, Foreman would have tired first. Ali did not spend the entire fight on the ropes. He was able to block most of Foreman's punches and absorb the few that got through. Whenever he wanted to, he was beating Foreman to the punch. In those days, Foreman was a very dirty fighter, always pushing his opponents, many times even shoving them to the canvas. Ali knew this and knew how to counter it. The only Foreman could ever have beaten Ali was to wait until Ali got so old he couldn't move anymore. Foreman was the one who went inactive for 1 1/2 years after losing, then became active for only another year. Still in his prime, he couldn't even beat Jimmy Young, so how could he beat Ali. After the Thrilla in Manila, Ali had no business not retiring. He somewhat tarnished his image with subsequent fights.

    The early Ali's average weight was 199. So what. After the first few years, he generally fought at between 210-220 when he was in his prime. Besides, the Klitschkos would never be able to land a solid punch on him.

    Cruiserweight limit is 195, so even at your calculated average of 199, Ali is still a heavyweight. Besides, other factors in different eras would cause bodies to be different

    OK, no more. You are not the least bit objective. Ali in his prime would not be beaten by anyone maybe with the exception of Joe Louis. Period!

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #615 Admin (2011-07-30th)
      You talk an awful lot. Problem is you don't know what you are talking about.

      Unfortunately for Clayfans I know what I talk about.

      The Klitschkos are really good and probably great in the current sad heavyweight division. Ali beats either of them easily and probably by KO or TKO, not even a decision. Same for Frazier, Foreman, Holmes and Holyfield.

      Or any other AMERICAN heavyweight. Thought so.

      Some corrections:Dundee actually tightened the ropes before the fight, not loosened them.

      Why corrections? I never claimed he loosened them. He tightened them hours before the fight. The point is: Had he NOT tightened them they would have either been TOO LOOSE for Ali's rope-a-dope or they would have been tightened just before the fight and hence been TOO TIGHT for Ali's rope-a-dope.

      The extreme heat and humidity made the ropes loose. Dundee didn't even know Ali was going to use that strategy. Ali was not lucky, he had plans a, b, c and maybe even d & f.

      That's a lot of letters for someone like Ali who suffered from dyslexia.

      The early Ali's average weight was 199. So what. After the first few years, he generally fought at between 210-220 when he was in his prime.

      AliFants define "Ali's prime" as they see fit. I, too, would agree that Ali's prime is in the 1970s, but that's not what the AliFants consensus is.

      Besides, the Klitschkos would never be able to land a solid punch on him.

      You got it the other way around: It's the Klitschko who hardly miss and who are hardly hit. And it's Ali who's nearly always hit and barely KOs anyone. A typical reality refusal by AliFants.

      Cruiserweight limit is 195, so even at your calculated average of 199, Ali is still a heavyweight.

      Cruiserweight is up to 201 lbs. But that's only the nominal upper limit. The de facto upper limit is approximately 215lbs nowadays.

      OK, no more. You are not the least bit objective. Ali in his prime would not be beaten by anyone

      Except by Ken Norton and Joe, the one-eyed featherfisted dwarf.

      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5731 Tommo (2013-03-28th)

        Ali in his prime… today… Would be beaten by just about EVERYONE! Avi, you're on the wrong site mate. This is a REALISTIC discussion. Check out the other blogs for fantasy Ali hype.

  • Aswin says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Piku Nary]
    #630 Aswin (2011-08-01st)

    This is a very biased article and you sir are one of the most biased boxing writers I have ever seen.

    Comparing Klitsckhos to the boxers in the 70s is like comparing schoolboys with college goers.

    The heavyweights of the 70s were the real deal. Heavyweights of the 70s were many pounds lighter because they did a lot of roadwork, (Cutting wood, running 3-5 sometimes 10 miles etc) whereas modern boxers add lot of muscle because of less roadwork and more supplements. Olden heavyweights had less weight but much stamina and strength. For example, Earnie Shavers, Ron Lyle, Ken Norton, George Foreman all weighed below 230 pounds, but hit harder than any modern heavyweight. INfact it is rumored that Earnie Shavers and Foreman were the hardest hitting punchers of all time. So degrading them is not right. COnsidering the fact that Ali faced most of the hardhitting heavyweights – Frazier, Lyle, Liston, Foreman, Quarry, Shavers, Chuvalo, Terrell and Norton, I would anyday rate him several ranks above Vitali or Wladmir Klitschko. Just because you knockout bums and bloated, over-the-hill heavyweights doesn't make you an all time great. Nikolai Valuev has equivalent number of wins compared to Wladmir, does that make him great.

    How many modern greats has Wladmir beaten? He never even faced the best of his generation – Vitali, Lennox, and Bowe. While it is agreed that Bowe retired by the time Wlad was peaking, he could never have beaten Vitali and Lennox due to their superior skill and stamina.
    Also, Wladmir had a suspect chin. If he had fought any of the 70s heavyweights, I am sure he would have got knocked out cleanly. While I agree that Vitali can be called a great boxer, Wladmir cannot be even considered amongst the greats.

    To say shortly, Vitali and Wladmir are nothing but good efficient boxers, who are lucky to survive in perhaps the worst and lowest talented heavyweight division in History.

    Perhaps if these brothers face someone of their size (Tyson fury), we will know the real story.

    • Admin says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #682 Admin (2011-08-08th)
      The heavyweights of the 70s were the real deal.

      They weren't the real deal. They were cruisers, and in Ali's case overweight cruisers.

      Also, Wladmir had a suspect chin. If he had fought any of the 70s heavyweights, I am sure he would have got knocked out cleanly.

      Oh, so Wlad with his bad chin rules the division? Shows you only how incredible Wlad's skills are since he is not protected by his chin, like all the past greats who are slurring now.

    • Tommo says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5732 Tommo (2013-03-28th)

      Aswin, one of your more stupider comments. Tyson Fury is a green, Wladimir will destroy him easy today. What becomes of him in the future we can't say. Prime for prime (Wlad is NOT from same gen) the 90s champs/top contenders would have been competition for Wladimir, the 70s were the schoolboys. They may have been competitive with each other back in the day but when compared to the modern era they were most definitely nothing but "featherfisted punch bag bums". This era is one of the most talented.

    • GaryAdams says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Divu Pamy]
      #7841 GaryAdams (2015-03-02nd)

      I do not think a 190 lb Jerry Quarry would have given Wladimir Klitschko a hard fight. Jerry Quarry beat Ernie Shavers. If the hardest ever hitting Shavers could not hit 5ft 11in Quarry, how would he ever hit Wladimir. The same goes for Joe Frazier. The average weight of the fighters that Wladimir has beat defending his title 17 times, is about 235 lbs and 12 of them had 305 wins against 4 losses, for a 98.7% win-loss record, with a huge number of knock-outs to their credit. Pretty dam impressive!! This fight coming up on April 25th with Bryant Jennings is another fighter in his prime at 30 years of age with an undefeated record. Very fast and good movement with a 7 foot reach, 3 inches longer than Wladimir's. It should be interesting.

  • Aswin says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Jany Wove]
    #678 Aswin (2011-08-08th)
    Calling Leon Spinks bum is okay but he won olympic gold medal so in 1978 he was solid fighter and than become a real bum.

    Tells you how bad Olympics was back in Ali's times.

    No.It tells how biased you are. Criticizing former greats with your so-called statistics is becoming a little too hard to digest.
    So, you would call modern olympics better. So, can you please let me know why the Gold Medalist Ray Mercer lost to a 40 Larry Holmes and why no modern heavyweight apart from Mike Tyson could knock out Larry Holmes???????

    You want to say Klitchkos are the greatest. Ok, let's call them the greatest, but one small problem, to be a great boxer, you need to have:
    1) Cleaned out the division in your era (Wladmir never avenged some of his defeats. Vitali lost to an ageing Lewis, never faced Tyson (not his fault though), never faced Bowe, Holyfield nor any other heavyweight who was considered as a legitimate threat)
    2) Klitschko's always had the height advantage over 90% of their opponents. To be frank, I can easily say that not even 2 opponents have been of 1) the same height as Klitschkos or 2) Heavier than Klitschko's- We will decide this when Tyson fury gets ready to fighrt
    3) No aggression – A young George Foreman gobbled up opponents and knocked them out faster, a young Mike tyson literally knockout out his opponents even before the opponent could lay a punch. How many such victories does Wladmir have? How many times did Wladmir finish off an opponent by attacking?

    If you want Wladmir to be known as an all-time great, then he has to prove himself once by attacking his opponents instead of jabbing them to death. If Wladmir or Vitali had been even 3 inches shorter in height, they would have not have so many victories or knockouts????

    To put it shortly, I would always rate Vitali to be the better boxers and perhaps put him along the greats. Wladmir, to me, is simply a good puncher, who makes good use of his reach. Let me see him defeat an opponent who is physically superior to him.
    Perhaps then, you may have a point.

    • Admin says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #681 Admin (2011-08-08th)
      So, you would call modern olympics better. So, can you please let me know why the Gold Medalist Ray Mercer lost to a 40 Larry Holmes and why no modern heavyweight apart from Mike Tyson could knock out Larry Holmes???????

      1) I don't call modern Olympics better. Olympic Boxing is a different sport. It's neither worse nor better.
      2) Holmes fought 8x times in world championships against modern heavyweights (1985+). He lost all encounters except vs Williamns (30-10 bum) and Bey (18-11 bum). That Holmes destroyed Ali so easily shows you what I claim all along: Eras get better and better. That Holmes lost only once by KO shows you what a good chin/defence he had.

      If you want Wladmir to be known as an all-time great, then he has to prove himself once by attacking his opponents instead of jabbing them to death. If Wladmir or Vitali had been even 3 inches shorter in height, they would have not have so many victories or knockouts????

      Wladimir Klitschko doesn't need to do ANYTHING of that sort.

      I am sorry for you that he doesn't match your favorite fantasy fighter, but just because he doesn't fight like you want him to fight doesn't diminish his wins. Quite the opposite: Since he doesn't fight like you THINK would be better, yet wins round after round, it shows that YOU are mistaken.

    • Tommo says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5789 Tommo (2013-03-30th)

      Vitali is also great boxer and one of the best all time.

      It would be VERY welcome Aswin if Wladimir would display some more aggression and would certainly make boxing more exciting. Definitely hints at chin issues. I think he is extremely clever as a boxer to avoid getting hit at all costs and consistently winning, mostly by KO. That's why he is among the greatest and not Ali who's "style" is mainly to have his head punched in until the other guy is exhausted lol. But it does make him somewhat boring and I prefer to see a Tyson/Morrison KO marathon for entertainment purposes.

  • Muhammad says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Kezi Uwa]
    #696 Muhammad (2011-08-09th)

    1.Modern boxers fight for 12 rounds vs 15 that Ali and gang did-imo whilst some advances have been made in terms of explosive power,stamina is something the old guys had to have.In WLads fight with Haye he was clearly getting tired in the latter rounds and probably didnt hurt Haye once.If we assume that Ali was anywhere near Hayes speed and his evasiveness similar then its possible that he would at least last the distance with Wlad.

    2.Boxing has dissapeared as a school sport as well as amateurs,thus modern boxers dont have the skill set nor is there the quantity of boxers as appeared decades ago.

    3.Ali is considered the most balanced boxer in heavyweight history as opposed to Tyson,Lewis,Klitschkos,etc

    4.Wlad has a suspect chin and was bounced around like a pinball and stopped by light hitting Sanders whose hand speed,whilst fast,was not in Alis league in that regard.

    5.Ali,in spite of being a few inches shorter than the Klitschkos actually has the same reach as both the brothers so the height is nullified to a large extent.(Lewis has a 4 inch longer reach and would have probably stopped Vitali and definitely Wlad-but i digress!)

    6.Ali is the exact same height and heavier than Mavrovic who gave Lennox Lewis a game fight and went the distance with him-Lewis was bigger,stronger and a harder hitter than both the Klitschkos.

    7.Ali had 6% body fat in his fight against Foreman-he couldnt have been all that fat.

    Ali had problems with guys he couldnt hit clean but Wlad wouldnt present those problems-when Ali did hit clean he could knock guys out-like Foreman who subsequently was never stopped,even against modern heavyweights.Thus he would have a better than even chance against Wlad,given their chins and Alis handspeed.

    • Tommo says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5733 Tommo (2013-03-28th)

      Some of your points are valid some aren't. Boxing disappeared as school sport in America is fair reason why Americans not competitive. In ex Soviet Union boxing is. And I don't agree that Ali was fat in Foreman fight either. He looked fit.

  • Aswin says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Jinu Wawy]
    #700 Aswin (2011-08-10th)

    Well, instead of defending yourself with facts, you choose to find ways to deviate from the argument.

    You said: I don't call modern Olympics better. Olympic Boxing is a different sport. It's neither worse nor better.

    But in a previous commment, when someone pointed out Leon Spinks was a Olympic gold medalist, you claimed that it showed how Olympics was worse in Ali's times. How did you conclude this? Do you have facts? When you argue about something, be objective.

    "You Said: I am sorry for you that he doesn't match your favorite fantasy fighter, but just because he doesn't fight like you want him to fight doesn't diminish his wins. Quite the opposite: Since he doesn't fight like you THINK would be better, yet wins round after round, it shows that YOU are mistaken."

    Thanks. Let me be objective:
    YOu said ERAS get better and better. On the contrary, boxing history has shown otherwise. The Era of Joe Louis was preceded by an Era of light heavyweights portraying themselves as HEavyweights. If you see the Post World War era (1945-1950) – Boxing had very few dominating heavyweights. Infact the only heavyweights that came to mind are a 185 pound Marciano, a 190-pound Ezzard Charles and a near -200 pound Walcott.
    The next era (1951-1963) with only Flyod Patterson and Sonny Liston dominating the proceedings post 1956. Then came the golden era (1964): Look at the calibre of heavyweights: Joe Frazier, Muhammed Ali, Ken Norton, Jerry Quarry, George Foreman, Chuvalo, Terrell, Ron Lyle, Shavers, Holmes, Jimmy Ellis, Oscar Bonaevana and Buster Mathis.
    This was followed by a worse era (1978-86): Holmes dominated the proceedings while the others Tex Randall Cobb, Jerry Cooney, and Trevor Berbick were the other known heavyweights.
    The next era (1986-1998) was slightly better: Mike Tyson, Johan Botha, Lewis, Oliver Mccall, Roy Jones, Riddick Bowe, Holyfield and a lot other shared the spotlight. Then, boxing stepped into a Decline: Holyfield and Tyson faded away badly and Lewis dominated the scene. The American promoter, Don King, heavily influenced the boxing organizations to ensure that the heavyweight championship of IBF, WBC, WBA, and IBO were not unified. As a result, we had separate champions for each division. The champions ranged anywhere from John Ruiz, Sultan Igbrahimov, Wladmir Klitschko, Vitali, Chris Byrd and Ross Puritty and a hell a lot others.

    So your statment on ERAS getting better couldn't be wrong. Having said that, I still have to agree that Wladmir and Vitali are the best boxers post 2004. Credit to them for their excellent performance. However, that makes them only Modern-era greats. You cannot compare them to old boxers and call the Olden era as inferior and weak. We can make a thousand arguments stating that ALi would be beaten by Wladmir or Vitali or XYZ, but the truth is we will never know. Let boxers be given their due credit. Frazier and Ali, along with Foreman, were the greatest of their time. Larry Holmes was the Vitali and Wladmir of his time. Now, Wladmir and Vitali are running the show.

    However, if you still desire to conclude that the Klitschko's are indeed all time greats, I am afraid that only Vitali merits to be among the greats. Vitali has never been down (Knocked down) and has not lost a single fight except the one with Lewis. And in my opinion, he beats Lewis in a rematch due to the fitness factor. Vitali is perhaps in top 25 boxers of all time. I wish he had faced better opponents like Holyfield, Mccall or the hard hitting Tua. Perhaps then, the boxing world would have really rated Higher.

    "You Said: Holmes fought 8x times in world championships against modern heavyweights (1985+). He lost all encounters except vs Williamns (30-10 bum) and Bey (18-11 bum). That Holmes destroyed Ali so easily shows you what I claim all along: Eras get better and better. That Holmes lost only once by KO shows you what a good chin/defence he had."

    Did you ever realized that Ali was already into the late stages of Parkinson's disease by the time he fought Holmes. The Ali that faced Holmes was already slurring in speech, lost his speed, couldn't defend himself, and was severely hammered by Holmes.

    You should check the Boxing history. It clearly dates Ali's decline in Health as early as 1976 (Post Shaviers fight). I wish you had stated the Leon SPinks fight as an example????? Please stop degrading old fighters with your "facts".

    • Admin says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #704 Admin (2011-08-10th)
      You said: I don't call modern Olympics better. Olympic Boxing is a different sport. It's neither worse nor better.
      But in a previous commment, when someone pointed out Leon Spinks was a Olympic gold medalist, you claimed that it showed how Olympics was worse in Ali's times.

      If someone mentions Olympics I answer Olympics.

      But you won't find me anywhere on this website mentioning achievements or failures at Olympics as some kind of proof.

      Basically the only time I mention Olympics is when I write that Wlad Klitschko fought in the Olympic SUPERHEAVYWEIGHT division, while Clay fought as sub-cruiser.

      But even then I don't care about their performances (both won Gold anyway).

      YOu said ERAS get better and better. On the contrary, boxing history has shown otherwise. The Era of Joe Louis was preceded by an Era of light heavyweights portraying themselves as HEavyweights. If you see the Post World War era (1945-1950) – Boxing had very few dominating heavyweights. Infact the only heavyweights that came to mind are a 185 pound Marciano, a 190-pound Ezzard Charles and a near -200 pound Walcott.

      The Mack/Marciano era is an exception and I mention this exception at
      [post=1609]
      [post=1235]
      [post=396]
      [post=1694]

      But even Marciano beat Joe Louis (but I know Louis was past it).

      The next era (1951-1963) with only Flyod Patterson and Sonny Liston dominating the proceedings post 1956. Then came the golden era (1964): Look at the calibre of heavyweights: Joe Frazier, Muhammed Ali, Ken Norton, Jerry Quarry, George Foreman, Chuvalo, Terrell, Ron Lyle, Shavers, Holmes, Jimmy Ellis, Oscar Bonaevana and Buster Mathis.

      I know all these names, and all of them are untested on the global boxing scene which includes Eastern Euros.

      They looked all good, because they fought each other. Just like English/American heavies would now look all good would the Eastern Euros be missing.

      Moreover you make another mistake. You define era as "the top guys at a certain time", but I don't apply such limits.
      For example, one of the reasons, why you consider Ken Norton being a top guy, is of course top because he had a good record (29-1) when he fought Ali.

      Yet ALL of his B- and C-level opponents (which _I_ include in my definition of an era) were of course worse than NOWADAYS B- and C-level opponents due to worse nutrition, training methods etc…

      Thus Norton's ability's reads good ON PAPER, yet already his achievements (prior to Ali) have a huge question mark attached to them. You see, the TOTALITY of boxers of an era was already worse than nowadays. I mention this at [post=1694]

      You cannot compare them to old boxers and call the Olden era as inferior and weak.

      Well, considering that a half-blind dwarf was world champ, and an overweight guy with Parkinson's was fighting against a 6-0 bum for the unified world championship, definitely won't help your case.

      Having said that: Ali's era is not per se weak, but it is an INCONCLUSIVE CRUISER era.

      Did you ever realized that Ali was already into the late stages of Parkinson's disease by the time he fought Holmes.
      The Ali that faced Holmes was already slurring in speech, lost his speed, couldn't defend himself, and was severely hammered by Holmes.

      Yeah, two fatties, one of the with Parkinson's, slugging it out. What a heck of an era!

      You should check the Boxing history. It clearly dates Ali's decline in Health as early as 1976 (Post Shaviers fight). I wish you had stated the Leon SPinks fight as an example????? Please stop degrading old fighters with your "facts".

      But that is exactly the problem with you: That Ali had Parkinson's already 1976 shows you how BAD the era was, when such a guy could still fight (and win) for the world championship. You apply the same bizarre inverted logic (like all AliFants) that I mention at [post=2342]
      * Frazier was half-blind
      * yet gave Ali trouble
      * hence Frazier is a hell of a fighter
      * hence he could beat Klitschko.

      WRONG!

      The correct logic is this one:

      * Frazier was half-blind
      * yet ave Ali trouble
      * thus it shows what trouble Ali would have against a Klitschko
      * and it shows that Foreman's easy win against Frazier was not a fluke

      • Tommo says:
        flag
        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5734 Tommo (2013-03-28th)

        Without bashing the olymics, we should just agree that Leon Spinks is sh*t and a shocking defeat for Ali. As a side note Aswin you cannot condemn Wladimir's losses to RoCoLa and not considering Ali's. RoCoLa were big punchers who caught Wladimir who was obviously more skilled than them. He could have definitely avenged them same as Ali avenged Spinks also. But Ali if he truly were the greatest has NO excuse for losing to green, bummy Leon. That gap toothed wonder actually "looked" the part of a real bum lol

  • Aswin says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Vixu Dawy]
    #710 Aswin (2011-08-11th)

    "But that is exactly the problem with you: That Ali had Parkinson's already 1976 shows you how BAD the era was, when such a guy could still fight (and win) for the world championship. You apply the same bizarre inverted logic (like all AliFants) that I mention at Muhammad "

    Stop calling me an ALIFANT, will you? I place facts while you always criticize me refusing to answer my points. Ali had Parkinson's only post 1976. One year of weakness does not point out how weak the era is. Ali fought for almost 18 years. If you really want to point out his minus points, please use your comparison post 1975 (Post the Thrilla in Manilla fight).
    You always seem to select only those facts that favor you and ignore the others.

    You conveniently seem to remember that Ali got floored by Henry Cooper, but still managed to recuperate and knock him out. You conveniently refuse to agree that the delay for changing the gloves was hardly a minute, very less time for the boxer to recuperate.
    YOu also conveniently forget that the Ali of 1964-1967 was proved to have the fastest handspeed amongst heavyweights. Infact, the recorded tapes proved he was faster than many middleweights.

    Let me tell you something, the Ali of 1964-67 was so fast that he didn;t require his chin to protect him. See the tapes of his fights with Williams, Liston, Brian London, and Cooper. He was floored by Cooper because he was fooling around like an idiot and underestimated Cooper's best shot and got floored. But he made it up by knocking Cooper out. So his knockdown doesn't prove he had a weak or even mediocre shin. If you see his first Liston fight, he was blinded in the 4th and 5th rounds, he took some very good bodyshots and still hammered Liston at will??

    You called Ali feather-fisted, didn't you?? Ali of 1964-67 had a knockout % of 80+ Look at Sony Liston's eye, he was bleeding from the shots, William's face was a bloody pulp, TErrell's was worse, Patterson was punished and Cooper bled in both fights!!! So much for a petty fist.

    Ali post 1970 was no longer the fleet-footed boxer he had been. So what did he dp? He relied on his other asset, a solid chin. That's what helped him to defeat fighters like Foreman, Lyle, Frazier and Shaviers. Now, you will blah blah seeing that he was lying on the ropes and not fighting Foreman. Dude!!! What exactly do you supposed that he could do? Foreman was a deadly puncher and almost killed Norton and Frazier. So, Ali had to use a strategy to win and he did use it to win. How many boxers would have survived those hellacious bodyshots from Foreman that day????? What's your excuse now??

    Do me a favor, invent a device which can measure a boxer's punching power and compare Foreman's with your very own Wladmir and Vitali. Then decide?
    You call me an Alifant while you are yourself a Klithugger. You criticize boxers stating facts, but refuse to even admit that Klitschkos have weaknesses of their own.

    Be objective dude. When I agree with some of your facts, you should respect the fact that I am not blindly criticizing you.

    "Well, considering that a half-blind dwarf was world champ, and an overweight guy with Parkinson's was fighting against a 6-0 bum for the unified world championship, definitely won't help your case.

    Having said that: Ali's era is not per se weak, but it is an INCONCLUSIVE CRUISER era."

    Buddy, ever heard of the theory of Evolution???? Human weight and height increases along with plenty of nutrition and environment.

    You refer to the oldies as cruiserweights???? Well, if you compare them to today's heavies, most of them were indeed cruiserweights, but I don't understand how that makes them inferior.

    As decades pass by, we get bigger, not better, heavyweights. In 1960s, we got Heavyweights with an average height ranging from 5'11 to 6 '2'. Average weight was around 190-210 pounds. Mind you In 1970, the height went marginally up from 6 "1" to 6 "4". Average weight was between 205-220 pounds.

    In the 1980s to early 90s, there was no big difference in Weight for heavyweights. Please check the boxers of the early 90s, Barring Lewis and Bowe, no other heavyweight exceeded 240-250 pound limit.???? It is only in the post 2004 era that we get fat slobby heavyweights from heights ranging from 6'2 to 6'7. Even then, we have only a handful of Heavyweights who exceeded 6 '4' and weighed 240+. Lewis, Bowe, Akinawade, Vitali, Johnson,and Wladmir. I may have missed a few names. BUt considering the fact that your so-called Superheavyweights are so few, I don't see any big difference in your Need for a ULTRAHEAVYWEIGHT division.

    And you say that Norton and Ali's opponents were below par. Let's check Wladmir's opponents, apart from Chris Byrd and Sam Peter, how many good fighters has he stopped in his prime???????
    Chris Byrd was not a big heavyweight, he was hardly 6 "0". If you look at Wladmir's opponents, till date, he has not faced a single heavyweight, who was above 6"5"???? What does that mean? Wladmir simply is taller and heavier than his opponents??

    Ok, let us check the facts again:
    Ross Puritty – Height – 6 foot 3 inches; Career Losses: 20 KO%: 50
    Chris Byrd: — Height – 6 foot 0 inches; Career Losses: 5 KO%: 45
    Corrie Sanders — Height 6 foot 4 inches; Career Losses: 4 KO%: 67.5
    Sam Peter 0—— Height 6 foot 2 inches; Career Losses: 5 KO%: 70%
    Lamon Brewster —-Height 6 foot 2 inches; Career Losses: 6 KO%: 67
    Axel Schultz ——Height 6 foot 3 inches; Career Losses: 5; KO: 33
    Ruslan Chagaev —-Height 6 foot 1 inches; Career Losses: 1; KO: 57
    Eddie Chambers —- Height 6 foot 1 inches; Career Losses: 2; KO: 45
    Hashim Rahman —–Height 6 foot 2 inches; Career Losses: 7; KO: 68

    Well, well, well, so the truth is out. Wladmir's opponents were all 1) Shorter than him, 2) Had a shorter reach, 3) Weighed only around 220-240 pounds. 4) Average Height: 6 foot 1.5 inches.

    So much for the ultraheavyweight era??????
    Dear sir, ignoring the quality of your Wladmir's opponents and preaching that he is above the best seems a bit ludicurous.

    Please accept the fact. Wladmir's opponents were of a lesser quality level compared to Ali or Frazier's opponents.
    Also, your argument that modern heavyweights are so taller and heavier has now gone to Zilch. I can easily say that Wladmir or Vitali, till date, have not faced an opponent taller than 6 "6" and weighing above 250 pounds. So much for ultraheavyweights!!!!

    What's your excuse now???

    In order to have a ultraheavyweight division, you must have atleast a group of 15-20 boxers with 1) Weight ranging from 240-300+ Pounds 2) Height from 6"4" – Unlimited

    So, if we create a class, then the only heavyweights falling under this category todya would be
    1) Wladmir 2) Vitali and 3) Tyson Fury.

    The point is you cannot degrade Olden heavyweights. I don;t care what you say about Ali. History will still remember as a great. But when you call Joe Frazier a one-eyed dwarf, I find it so insulting to a legend. Yes, it was true that he had cataract, but he wasn't completely blind. Plus, he fought very very efficiently despite his handicap, won a gold medal, beat the likes of Ali, Quarry, Foster, and Ellis. Tell me something, why does his handicap bother you when he ultimately still managed to dominate. His only losses were to better fighters, Ali and Foreman. And having said that Foreman was the strongest puncher of all time. If you need a fact, go to Youtube and google Foreman Training. You will see him pulling a f*cking Zeep for miles and punching holes into the punching bag. And mind ya, these are recorded videos, don;t give silly excuses like "Just because a man can pull a zeep up a hill doesn't mean he is strong and the punching bag was made of cotton, blah blah". Foreman, no matter, what you say was the hardest hitter in the Ali era. He hit harder than Shaver, Lyle, Wladmir or Vitali.

    Vitali was way better than Wladmir, but even Vitali couldn't knockout an ageing Lewis. It's quite unfortunate that we never saw the rematch? So, neither Lewis nor Vitali nor Wladmir can be termed all time greats!! Period.

    You always love to put up facts. Don't you? Please place one fact to prove that Wladmir is better than Vitali???

    • Admin says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #856 Admin (2011-08-31st)
      One year of weakness does not point out how weak the era is.

      Yup, it shows you that.

      A "Parkinson Champ" winning against a bum, and the bum winning against a Parkinson Champ in a unified world title match shows you exactly how bad an era is.

      Ali fought for almost 18 years. If you really want to point out his minus points, please use your comparison post 1975 (Post the Thrilla in Manilla fight).
      You always seem to select only those facts that favor you and ignore the others.

      1) I consider the whole record.
      2) without bums
      3) without CakaHweight fights, cruiser fights and sub-cruiser fights.

      If you want to include Ali's cruiser fights in a comparison, then include other boxer's cruiser fights, too (= compare Ali to modern cruisers)

      You conveniently seem to remember that Ali got floored by Henry Cooper, but still managed to recuperate and knock him out.

      Only if you define "recuperate" as "using illegal smelling salts".

      You conveniently refuse to agree that the delay for changing the gloves was hardly a minute, very less time for the boxer to recuperate.

      That it took a few minutes is what Cooper claimed until his death. And who am I to disagree?

      YOu also conveniently forget that the Ali of 1964-1967 was proved to have the fastest handspeed amongst heavyweights. Infact, the recorded tapes proved he was faster than many middleweights.

      Yeah, middle weights BACK THEN.

      Moreover I _do_ mention Ali's speed. I simply disagree that Ali's shoe shine combos were anything special.

      Let me tell you something, the Ali of 1964-67 was so fast that he didn;t require his chin to protect him.

      Exactly my point: You consider the BEST Ali performances. I consider the whole record.

      It's obvious that when you consider only best performances (against doubtful opponents like London, Cooper, Terrell etc) that you come to a distorted conclusion.

      See the tapes of his fights with Williams, Liston, Brian London, and Cooper.

      I saw them. Nothing special. Especially since
      * Liston was old (and the fights ended controversial)
      * Williams was a cripple
      * London is a 37-20 bum
      * Cooper was 188 lbs.

      THESE FIGHTS you want us to watch to prove something?

      Sorry, you have to accept being called an AliFant.

      He was floored by Cooper because he was fooling around like an idiot

      Thank you for admitting that Ali fought like an idiot.

      and underestimated Cooper's best shot

      The best shot of a 188 lbs 40-14 bummy featherfist. I wonder how all his other 26 opponents could miraculously survive him. I guess they all, too, had to use smelling salts.

      If you see his first Liston fight, he was blinded in the 4th and 5th rounds, he took some very good bodyshots and still hammered Liston at will??

      He CLAIMS he was blinded. Big difference. But I agree that these "blind rounds" were actually Ali's best performance in that fight. Other than that Liston was beating him up and I gave all rounds to Liston.

      You called Ali feather-fisted, didn't you?? Ali of 1964-67 had a knockout % of 80+

      And in the year 1965 alone he had a KOratio of 100%. Wooow!

      Look at Sony Liston's eye, he was bleeding from the shots

      Happens in boxing. Is that a proof of any sort?

      Ali post 1970 was no longer the fleet-footed boxer he had been. So what did he dp? He relied on his other asset, a solid chin. That's what helped him to defeat fighters like Foreman

      The Foreman fight is the biggest upset of the "Golden Age" and confuses American Boxing fans to this very day. I mention it in my article above, so no need to mention it again.

      Do me a favor, invent a device which can measure a boxer's punching power and compare Foreman's with your very own Wladmir and Vitali. Then decide?

      Although I believe that Wlad punches harder, such device is nonsense because not only the power counts but other things like timing, accuracy, surprise, speed etc.

      You call me an Alifant while you are yourself a Klithugger.

      What the heck? Calling me a nuthugger is ridiculous considering that you don't even know whether I actually LIKE the Klitschkos. I already pre-addressed this issue in my article.

      Be objective dude. When I agree with some of your facts, you should respect the fact that I am not blindly criticizing you.

      No, you are not blindly criticizing me. Your arguments show boxing knowledge and are basically VERY GOOD. If you wouldn't make the typical mistakes that I point out at [post=932] and at other places where I already pre-answered your arguments.

      You refer to the oldies as cruiserweights???? Well, if you compare them to today's heavies, most of them were indeed cruiserweights, but I don't understand how that makes them inferior.

      That makes them inferior as ultraheavyweights of course, not inferior as cruiserweights. As cruiserweights they were "OK to good".

      In the 1980s to early 90s, there was no big difference in Weight for heavyweights. Please check the boxers of the early 90s, Barring Lewis and Bowe, no other heavyweight exceeded 240-250 pound limit.????

      I did era comparisons at [post=1609].

      The basic mistake that you make is that you think that a world title fight, say, "220 vs 220" in the 1980s is the same as "220 vs 220" nowadays. No, it's not. Because in the 1980 the two guys (although weighing 220) have a far lighter background (= lighter previous opponents) than nowadays thus they are far less proven as heavyweights.

      And you say that Norton and Ali's opponents were below par. Let's check Wladmir's opponents, apart from Chris Byrd and Sam Peter, how many good fighters has he stopped in his prime???????

      This is completely offtopic and worth several articles.

      And it's especially offtopic since I mention at the top of the article that this is a h2h analysis, not a r4r or p4p analysis.

      Please accept the fact. Wladmir's opponents were of a lesser quality level compared to Ali or Frazier's opponents.

      And they may have been of lesser quality than Sugar Ray Robinson's opponents. Doesn't change the fact that modern ultraweight would knock all of these opponents out.

      In order to have a ultraheavyweight division, you must have atleast a group of 15-20 boxers with 1) Weight ranging from 240-300+ Pounds 2) Height from 6"4" – Unlimited

      In my definition Ultraweight starts at 215 lbs.

      The point is you cannot degrade Olden heavyweights. I don;t care what you say about Ali. History will still remember as a great. But when you call Joe Frazier a one-eyed dwarf, I find it so insulting to a legend. Yes, it was true that he had cataract, but he wasn't completely blind. Plus, he fought very very efficiently despite his handicap, won a gold medal

      Wrong. he won the gold medal before his blindness.

      beat the likes of Ali, Quarry, Foster, and Ellis. Tell me something, why does his handicap bother you when he ultimately still managed to dominate.

      Because it shows how bad the era was if a featherfisted one-eyed dwarf can rule it.

      And having said that Foreman was the strongest puncher of all time. If you need a fact, go to Youtube and google Foreman Training. You will see him pulling a f*cking Zeep for miles and punching holes into the punching bag.

      Did you just compare a punching bag to a live opponent? And nobody DOUBTS that Foreman could punch a bag hard. And nobody doubts that Foreman is one of the best KOers.

      He hit harder than Shaver, Lyle, Wladmir or Vitali.

      Maybe he could hit still objects harder. When it comes to ACTUAL in-ring KO performance nobody is better than the Klitschkos.

      Vitali was way better than Wladmir, but even Vitali couldn't knockout an ageing Lewis. It's quite unfortunate that we never saw the rematch? So, neither Lewis nor Vitali nor Wladmir can be termed all time greats!! Period.

      Again completely offtopic.

      You always love to put up facts. Don't you? Please place one fact to prove that Wladmir is better than Vitali???

      How about Wlad holding 5 belts and Vitali only 1?

      • Honza says:
        flag
        [ip2username: Zura Pyso]
        #5317 Honza (2012-11-21st)

        That it took a few minutes is what Cooper claimed until his death. And who am I to disagree?
        He CLAIMS he was blinded. Big difference. But I agree that these "blind rounds" were actually Ali's best performance in that fight. Other than that Liston was beating him up and I gave all rounds to Liston.

        You do not believe Muhammad but you believe Cooper who was beaten right? I think these two lines shows you as Ali hater.

      • Tommo says:
        flag
        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5735 Tommo (2013-03-28th)

        And you forgot one more ridiculous points of Aswins to expose as well admin.. "He couldn't move as fast anymore in the 70's so what he do? He relied on this other assets like his chin" lol basically admitting that as soon he blew up to be a real HW, he was a punch bag lol =P

    • GaryAdams says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Divu Pamy]
      #7842 GaryAdams (2015-03-02nd)

      Wrong, any heavyweight champion whom has defended his title 17 times
      should be on the all time great list. Plus, 12 of those 17 fighters that Wladimir beat defending his title had 305 wins against 4 losses (8 of them were undefeated and 4 had 1 loss apiece) for a 98.7 win-loss record with many knockouts to their credit. Also, Wladimir has hardly lost a round in almost 10 years and very rarely gets hit!! Emanual Steward's coaching along with his suburb conditioning and strength and his ability to improve which he has a lot puts him now, on the all time great list!
      The great Joe Louis whom I admired a lot, opponents in his title fights had 201 losses. THAT IS ONE HELL OF A DIFFERENCE. Jimmy Braddock whom Joe took the title from had 25 losses with the rest 176. Yes, I took the time and looked it all up.

  • wtf says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Pewi Zuxa]
    #850 wtf (2011-08-31st)

    The hole artical is so weird,using math and statistics on boxing r you serious?

    • Admin says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #855 Admin (2011-08-31st)

      Yes, I am serious and I pre-answered this complaint at [post=932] –> "Stats don't tell the whole story!"

  • Aswin says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Piku Nary]
    #870 Aswin (2011-09-02nd)

    "In my definition Ultraweight starts at 215 lbs."
    I am sorry, you cannot have a division starting at 215 lbs and call it Ultra heavyweight. The Heavyweight division is considered to be the best division because 1) It has the heaviest and tallest fighters fighting in it. That's why they call it HEAVYWEIGHT.
    Today, with modern weight training methods, masking steroids etc, cruiserweights can easily gain 10-15 extra pounds. So having an ultra heavyweight division at 215 is meaningless.

    I have it at 240 because heavy fighters like Klitschkos, Mccline, Briggs, Grant, and other big fighters fight around 230-240 pounds.

    "beat the likes of Ali, Quarry, Foster, and Ellis. Tell me something, why does his handicap bother you when he ultimately still managed to dominate.
    Because it shows how bad the era was if a featherfisted one-eyed dwarf can rule it."

    No, it shows that if you box with dedication and heart, you can knockout heavier fighters.
    The last time I saw a Joe Frazier fight, he was landing accurate left hooks on his opponents. And his accuracy at landing hooks flush on his opponents was very good. Compare that to a modern opponent like Shannon Briggs or David Haye, who landed very few punches on their opponents, I guess Frazier comes out better on quality.

    1) His blindess does not make him a bad fighter. Beethoven was deaf, but yet he composed the best symphonies. This too considering that the most important point to music is that we need to hear it. Do we ignore Beethoven's symphonies just because he was deaf???? Then, why do you stand so biased against Frazier. In terms of quality, he fought the best opponents. Quarry,who defeated a 220 pound Lyle and 208 pound Shavers got knocked out twice by Joe.
    2) Jimmy Ellis was stopped. He was a decent cruiser or heavyweight or whatever you call it. But still a good boxer.
    3) Even modern boxing coaches like Freddie Roach and Emmanuel Stewart consider Joe to be a great boxer.

    Just because a person is handicapped doesn;t make them inferior. You need to give points like 1) Joe Frazier had poor defense, had only one style – moving forward to pressurize the fighter etc. But just telling that he is a poor fighter coz he is half blind only shows your comment in poor taste.

    "You always love to put up facts. Don't you? Please place one fact to prove that Wladmir is better than Vitali???
    How about Wlad holding 5 belts and Vitali only 1?"

    Again, wrong point. Wladimir holds 5 belts only because Vitali lets his bro have them. Haye was meant to be Vitali's opponent, but in the end, Wladimir had him. Same is the case with the other titles.

    Do you seriously want me to believe that Vitali could not have beat John Ruiz, Chris Byrd, Sam Peter, Sultan Ibrahimov, and other fighters that Wlad beat for the title. Vitali simply offered the titleshots to his brother because 1) He loves his brother and wants him to take the spotlight 2) Vitali's body is no longer conditioned to fight frequently.

    Last. but not least. You lose all credibility when you label me as an Alifant. I am from India, a land where boxing is only remembered as an olympic sport. I started following boxing only because I read about the old fights "Thriller in Manilla", "Rumble in the Jungle" etc. Ali is as dear to me as the sport HOCKEY is to an AMERICAN. When I don;t even consider boxing to be my favorite sport, how can i be an Ali fan. I support Ali only when you state facts that I believe are not quite true. Accepting them or not is left to your discretion. Labelling me as Ali fant does not help your cause one bit.

    I am neither against Klitschkos nor do I like Ali.But i still consider him to be the fastest heavyweight ever.Irrespective of what weight category you state, 212 pounds will always be above cruiserweight because that's what the boxing rule book states.

    As I always state, Height and Weight are not irrelevant in boxing. They do matter. But when a 220 boxer with great punching technique, good stamina and chin, meets a lazy 320 pound bum, it is the lighter boxer, who wins.

    The best example is 1) a 210 pound Joe Louis beating a 265 pound, 6 foot 6 buddy baer.
    2) A 208 pound Holyfield beating 1) a 245 pound Buster Douglas 2) A 260 pound Foreman, 3) A 265 pound Riddick Bowe (In the second fight of the triology)
    3) A 220+ pound Tomaz Adamek beating a 260 something Michael Grant (Who stands nearly at 6 foot 7 inches)
    4) A 220+ pound David Haye beating a 320+ pound, 7 foot, Nikolei Valuev.
    5) A 230+ Ruslan Chaglaev beating a 320+ pound, 7 foot Nikolei Valuev.
    6) Chris Byrd's biggest opponent weighed around 282 pounds and yet Byrd defeated him.
    7) A 210 pound Jack Dempsey defeating a 230 pound 6 foot 7 Jessy Williard.

    Boxing is not all about Power. Sometimes, technique, heart, and stamina pitches in as well.

    • wesley says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Xeki Kusa]
      #3516 wesley (2011-12-30th)

      What a good post, and pretty much debunks everythink he has said about his beloved wlad, its not just about size, although it does play a part, but a great small un always beats a good big un.

      Also most of the champions of past, beat guys that were significantly bigger than them selfs as you have stated, were as vitali and wlad have not beaten anyone bigger than themselfs or even the same size.
      ..hell they havnt even cleared out there own era..themselfs and valuev so how can they be matched to greats that did?
      All i see is a couple of very very tall, athletic and skilled boxers beating up on there smaller, overweight, undertrained competion, in what most people would state is the worst in heavyweight history, regardless of his biased 'kickboxing' weight comparison tables.

      • Admin says:
        flag
        [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
        #3537 Admin (2011-12-31st)
        All i see is a couple of very very tall, athletic and skilled boxers beating up on there smaller, overweight, undertrained competion

        Then you are blind.

      • Tommo says:
        flag
        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5737 Tommo (2013-03-28th)

        Wesley he does nothing of the sort. I am 6'2" 220lbs and I used to box/still train, I have watched lots of fights and followed boxing for years also. About the only credible thing Aswin just posted was that smaller fighters CAN and HAVE defeated bigger ones duh. Nobody would box if it was clear as that would they. The author declares this also. Just that weight is one of the most important issues. Why there are weight divisions obviously. Unfortunately for Aswin his good comments are embedded with absolutely moronic ones like golden age boxers could beat modern ones. "I" am in better condition than some of those guys and i'm not even a professional. Apart from George, who else looked like they could be a modern HW? Ken Norton. Weak chin, got KO'd a lot and had a basically non-existent punch. Scary stuff Wesley!!

    • Tommo says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5736 Tommo (2013-03-28th)

      Frazier better quality than Haye and Briggs? Briggs would just punch him out enough said and how can you even compare to Haye? The reason Haye would miss more is not because he has accuracy problems but because he has to fight a much higher quality of opponents today who are more evasive. For instance of course he could land that left hook on Clay because Clay is a punch bag who doesn't move out of the way lol. None of the other opponents you mentioned of Joe would have any relevance today. Joe's real relevant HW experience with quality experience is 1-2 (1 win to Ali, 1 loss to Ali and 1 loss to Foreman). One of the most pathetic records of ANY HW champ.

      But yes he should do a match up of Vitali vs Wladimir. It will be one of the hottest topics.

  • aaron says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Myno Mesi]
    #905 aaron (2011-09-08th)

    hahahahahaha..you actually wasted ur time on this sh*t..listen bum

    vitali woulda sure as hell succeeded in the golden age of boxin you know why the guy has heart

    wlad hahahahaha he looked like he missed mommy against sanders, he s got technique but cant handle pressure for sh*t..

    you know what the irony is you cant find one guy in this so called era that actually put pressure on wlad, ha ha, maybe david gaye must be ur answer..

    what else you got stats my ass, boxing is about brains sonny, wlad is an olympic gold granted but so is brother muhammad,

    stink and run hahaha this is what u get when u bring nerds to analyse and talk about what men do

    forget ali, wlad wuda run away from lennox, and in my opinion, lennox, holmes and maybe a holyfield wuda ben the few greats to even trouble ali

    powder puncher my ass, im a wlad fan, he s a tremendous talent but the guy lacks heart, sanders had it, and ate the boy for breakfast

    vitali had to avenge him

    unless wlad fights a real dawg i mean like a guy with some serious heart not bums like byrd and types, even a guy like tommy morrison, only then wud his groupie whore minion like you actually shift to real nymphets like women hot women,

    talk wat u may boy wlad has no heart boy cant handle a fighter who chews on meat and cant back down

    • Anonymous says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Zewi Zuza]
      #1335 (2011-10-02nd)

      i have watched boxing all my life. you have put together the facts. ther has never been an era as good as this. the klitschko brothers are the best all around heavyweights of all time.

    • Tommo says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5738 Tommo (2013-03-28th)

      Yeah this guy sounds a little geriatric to me. Could you imaging Ali mouthing off to Lennox doing the gape mouth as they faced off lol. One huge right would have knocked that ridiculous morons mouth apart lol. Think Holy, Lennox and "even Tommy Morrison" would have been more than just a "little" trouble for Ali. Take Tommy, regarded as a good contender of 90s but not great one because of chin issues. Had some boxing skills but more regarded for his punch. He had enough skill to survive into the 6th round with Lennox before losing TKO so would not be "played with by Ali" in that regard. He didn't have to be cautious with Ali in that regard, his chin could have handled anything Ali could put on it and his punch was one of the hardest of all time. There should be an article written "Who could knock Ali out the fastest: Tommy Morrison or Mike Tyson?" could be a fiercely competitive debate lol

  • The Greatest says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Wesi Vuba]
    #936 The Greatest (2011-09-13th)

    This dude who wrote this article must be a George Foreman fan, judging from his quote " Foreman is the best boxer of the 1970's". So getting knocked out by a cruiser-weight(as you say) in the 8th round makes him the "best"? Oh wait, he was poisoned.. Don't make me laugh you fool, that i only have heard from your jacked mouth, and i have read a thousand articles/stories about "The Fight".

    You obviously are using the klitschko brothers as a weak argument to proclaim Ali was not even great. You're an insult to the boxing community and clearly a bitter fool. Good riddens to you.

    The Greatest

  • Anonymous says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Jylo Geli]
    #1392 (2011-10-04th)

    It's unbelievable how you try to make cr*ap out of gold.

    Tells you how bad Olympics was back in Ali's times

    You have used theese answers when I tried to be polite and was defending my favorites ( Evander and Muhammad. If somebody won title a have contract for rematch that is ok but nobody is happy that Klitschkos fight like unofficial tag team. Maybe you are happy with that.

  • Honza says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Jylo Geli]
    #1393 Honza (2011-10-04th)

    As many here said before. You are Klitschko fan and insult to boxing. Klitschkos are great butalso Muhammad, Joe, Evander, Riddick etc. end of story. And please stop calling Joe Frazier featherfisted dwarf ok? 5 ft 11 ins is not giant but also not a dwarf

  • Honza says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Jylo Geli]
    #1415 Honza (2011-10-05th)

    Sometimes I feel like this Admin is not just one person. He seems like combination of Klitschko nuthugger/ Ali hater and fact based analytic ( unfortunately he likes only fact that make Muhammad worse than he actual was).

  • Honza says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Jylo Geli]
    #1416 Honza (2011-10-05th)

    What the heck? Calling me a nuthugger is ridiculous considering that you don't even know whether I actually LIKE the Klitschkos. I already pre-addressed this issue in my article

    When you call somebody Alifant that is okay but you hate when somebody call you nuthugger. You are objective as sh*t mr. never never land.

  • Boss says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Sode Rigu]
    #1475 Boss (2011-10-07th)

    So yea man i see how your comparing Ali to the klit's which is something I think a lot of ppl are interested in. The thing is you can't really compare eras its just impossible because you say you want to rely completely on the facts but you can't say for sure that Ali's body wouldn't be different if he were around today and not just that he would not be different but also his sparring partners would be different his technique, style, and complete game would be different. The only thing you can bring from different era's is their heart, desire and competitive nature which Ali and the klit's have a lot of. I know this because ppl can't stand when I say that I think Kobe Bryant is as good as MJ but what ever everyone has an opinion.

  • shellbsd23 says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Lapy Voje]
    #3405 shellbsd23 (2011-12-17th)

    I think these articles are great. They are opening my eyes anyway. I always 'felt' that the old generation was slower, smaller and looked weaker than the champs of the last decade and this article proves it.

    Great work man. Keep it up! Now I can just forward the nostalgic 'ALIFants' as you call them to this blog lol

    • Tommo says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5739 Tommo (2013-03-28th)

      Yes that was your common sense view that most people would have BEFORE they are subject to brain washing. Hopefully it's coming back for some people.

  • RVDIII says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Xeli Jula]
    #3408 RVDIII (2011-12-17th)

    What a joke! Teddy Atlas once pointed out that the K brothers move straight back when attacked. (watch the clips on you tube) Plus they are plodding and as slow as molasses and remind me of Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams! Not only could they not touch Ali in his prime, Ali's rapidly delivered multiple punches that KO'ed Big George Foreman (Who else KO'ed Big George???)would crumble the K brothers like the stiff robot puppets they are actually are….what a joke! If you look closely you can see the strings!!LOL!!! (The Drago brothers.."I will break you.." LOL! HUH? Vwhere did he go???" DUH!) A total mismatch! Ali would toy with them like a cat plays with a mouse…..

    • Admin says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #3413 Admin (2011-12-17th)
      Teddy Atlas once pointed out that the K brothers move straight back when attacked.

      1) Teddy Atlas is one of the most vocal haters. He rants against them since years.
      2) Moving back/forward/sideways when attacked is completely irrelevant. Winning is relevant. KOing is relevant.

      Plus they are plodding and as slow as molasses

      The … Klitschkos… slow…? Wwwwhat?

      Are you watching their fights or the slowmotion replays of their KOs?

      would crumble the K brothers like the stiff robot puppets they are actually are….what a joke! If you look closely you can see the strings!!LOL!!! (The Drago brothers.."I will break you.." LOL! HUH? Vwhere did he go???" DUH!)

      I just wanted to answer until I noticed…. that I didn't need to.

    • Tommo says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5740 Tommo (2013-03-28th)

      Yes. In a match, the Klitschko's work rate would be FAR from impressive… Because they wouldn't really have to do much work before they'd be celebrating another KO victory.

  • Rohan says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Bary Vope]
    #3437 Rohan (2011-12-18th)

    haha this must be a spoof article.

    Only an insane man would think Klit who cried out of a Byrd fight would last with Ali.

    • Admin says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #3439 Admin (2011-12-19th)

      1) How does a bad performance against Byrd prove a bad performance against Ali?

      2) Wladimir Klitschko had no problems against Byrd.

  • Tim says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Saky Wone]
    #3438 Tim (2011-12-19th)

    Wladimir Klitschko is a MODERN champion.I do believe he would win against Ali any time!!

  • wesley says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Loje Tibu]
    #3453 wesley (2011-12-20th)

    Poisening foreman, muslim threats, fixed fights,ali a slow cruiserweight???? tell me what drugs are you taking??

    • wesley says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Loje Tibu]
      #3454 wesley (2011-12-21st)

      You still havnt answered the question above about wlad fighting heavier opponents?
      Neither wlad or vitali can be classed as all time great…do you know why?? niether of them has beaten the best of there era..them selfs! how utter stupid is that??

      Also apart from them selfs, the only other fighters who is respectable is lennox lewis and mike tyson, both faded, they either didnt fight, or did fight and lost to, all the other fighters are very poor indeed.

      I dont like it, and others have expressed it too, how you have selectivly made up your own set of imaginary rules on which weights are acceptable and which can be discounted, who is and who isnt a bum, anything above 215 a super heavyweight division??? really? you are a complete idiot. period.

      Also you make reference to the fact fighters of yesteryear had poorer diet, training health etc, and weighed less, therefore by default none of there achievements count compared to klitchkos, who have access to these things.rubbish.
      But what you convieniently miss out is that all the legends opponents all lived by the same rules and standards of there time, so they were all HEAVYWEIGHTS and the best trained for the era that they were in.
      As diets, training and evolution/genetics have improved, along with the standard of living and less malnurishment and poverty so have the fighters weights and size, to a point…the majority of fighters now days are like buddy said above about the same, EXCEPT a handfull which both the klitchkos are part of supprise supprise.

      I think im right in saying, this crappy era has bought about the 3 tallest heavyweight champions of all time right? and one is the heaviest as well 7ft3 23stones valuev.
      Isnt funny then that neither of the biggest fighters have actually had the courage to step in the ring against each other?? also buy your standards DAVID haye and another guy are basically very small heavyweights or cruiserweights and they still beat him???
      what does that say about this era when the most feared, avoided,heaviest, tallest fighter is beated by fightes who are only 60% of the weight and a foot or more smaller!!!
      And an old 45 year old evander on his death bed gets conned out of a victory against??

      The klitchkos best opponents of there era are themselfs, an unskilled giant who lost to fighters who are ants in comparison..but at least they actually fight, unlike the cowards klitchkos who avoided him and handpick the others.
      An old delapidated holyfield that most think beat valuev, and again someone the klitchkos wont fight.
      A retiring legend in lennox, over weight, and un motivated according to him self and his trainer steward….vitali, the by far better of the 2 .lost.
      A shot and faded tyson, but still remotely dangerous to wlads chin…again avoided.
      Corrie sanders, a decent fighter, beat wlad.
      Samuel peter…decent fighter around 2005 beat wlad, unmotivated and fat since.
      Ross purity..a terrible fighter 20 losses,. beat wlad.

      So no matter how you look at it, the klitckos have been bigger than everyone they have faced, and avoided the only fighter that is bigger.
      Of the limited fighters of this era that can be called remotley decent, and too be fair we will include faded legends into this like lewis, tyson and holyfield, just to pad it up
      They either lost against them, or avoided them.

      None of the fighters of this era that they have faced will get into the hall of fame, the only ones that will get into the hall of fame, they avoided, or lost (lewis)
      The only credible opponents that are the same size as them selfs, are…themselfs and vakuev..again avoided.

      The rest are utter crap, including some of that crap who have managed to knock out wlad or in other cases knock down.
      Emanuel steward said that wlad has a poor chin, emanuel steward says that his fighter is dull and boring. emanuel steward says that his fighter has fought no credible standout 'signiture' fights, and that he considered DAVID HAYE of all people to be wlads best fight (on the lead upto the fight) and he needed haye to cement his legacy….
      WHAT A JOKE!!!!!!!!!

      you are comparing great fighters like mohammed ali to fighters like wlad, how dont even face the best fighters of there era, lose to others who are not, are bigger and stronger than all the bums they are facing..so much so that there own trainer thinks that DAVID HAYE. is wlads best possible ever opponent!!! a former cruiser weight!!
      Also if you watched the fight, you would know that david haye weighed in at 14st10!!
      And that despite that wlad landed flush on hayes chin numerous times but never once even had him down or even wobbled??? yes DAVID HAYE who is known for his glass chin having been stopped by a former MIDDLEWEIGHT. and put down by other cruiser weights!!???.

      And in other articles you say wlad is the hardest puncher of all time??? the fastest, best skills, best record, that he is by far the best fighter of all time ARE YOU BEING SERIOUS??????
      YOU ARE A COMPLETE JOKE AND AN EMBARRASSMENT.

      • Admin says:
        flag
        [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
        #3475 Admin (2011-12-25th)
        Neither wlad or vitali can be classed as all time great…do you know why?? niether of them has beaten the best of there era..them selfs! how utter stupid is that??

        You don't need to beat Wlad or Vitali to be considered ATG. Moreover that same logic would apply to Mike Tyson, who lost to Lennox and Evan Fields.

        I dont like it, and others have expressed it too, how you have selectivly made up your own set of imaginary rules on which weights are acceptable and which can be discounted, who is and who isnt a bum, anything above 215 a super heavyweight division??? really? you are a complete idiot. period.

        Except, that I didn't make up the 200 lbs rule. It's the official rule of nearly all boxing organizations, including olympics.

        And the 215+ lbs margin ("superheavyweight") I took from kickboxing. So it's also something I didn't make up.

        Also you make reference to the fact fighters of yesteryear had poorer diet, training health etc, and weighed less, therefore by default none of there achievements count compared to klitchkos, who have access to these things.rubbish.

        Wrong. You still don't seem to understand.

        The ACHIEVEMENTS of yesteryear's boxers might be 3 times as good as the Klitschkos. Just as the record of Floyd Mayweather Jr might be far better than that of George Foreman.

        BUT NOT IN TERMS OF REAL HEAVYWEIGHT.

        You see, I do not delete Max Schmeling off the record of Joe Louis. I simply consider it a CRUISERWEIGHT win/loss and hence compare it to a cruiserweight record.

        When in 200 years heavyweights will be allowed to box against WOMEN, then I would also exclude women from their records to be able to compare the record to past heavyweights.

        But what you convieniently miss out is that all the legends opponents all lived by the same rules and standards of there time, so they were all HEAVYWEIGHTS and the best trained for the era that they were in.

        Doesn't change the fact that Louis vs Schmeling was 198 vs 192.

        I think im right in saying, this crappy era has bought about the 3 tallest heavyweight champions of all time right? and one is the heaviest as well 7ft3 23stones valuev.
        Isnt funny then that neither of the biggest fighters have actually had the courage to step in the ring against each other??

        Valuev retired. And additionally Klitschko did something better than beating Valuev. He beat the guys who beat Valuev (Chagaev, Haye).

        also buy your standards DAVID haye and another guy are basically very small heavyweights or cruiserweights and they still beat him???
        what does that say about this era when the most feared, avoided,heaviest, tallest fighter is beated by fightes

        Valuev? The most feared? What the heck? Additionally it was Valuev's team (no wonder, it includes Don King) that was always reluctant to fight the Klitschkos.

        And an old 45 year old evander on his death bed gets conned out of a victory against??

        Evan Fields lost rightfully. No revisionism please.

        An old delapidated holyfield that most think beat valuev, and again someone the klitchkos wont fight.

        Evan Fields HAD the chance to fight Wladimir Klitschko. But he lost to Sultan Ibragimov and hence Klitschko fought Ibragimov.

        A shot and faded tyson, but still remotely dangerous to wlads chin…again avoided.

        Tyson HAD the chance to fight Vitali Klitschko. But he lost against Danny Williams thus Vitali fought (and demolished) Danny Williams.

        Samuel peter…decent fighter around 2005 beat wlad

        What the heck? More revisionism?

        Ross purity..a terrible fighter 20 losses,. beat wlad.

        And Ali lost to a 26-17 guy. Listen, this is EXACLTY the difference between you and me: I consider the whole record (and the opponents' whole records) while you pick out single fights to make a point.

        I pre-answered this already at
        [post=488]
        –> "Rankings by Signature Fights"

        limited fighters of this era", "remotley decent", "faded legends", "None of the fighters of this era", "are utter crap", "poor chin"?, "dull and boring", "signiture' fights", "WHAT A JOKE!!!!!!!!!", "YOU ARE A COMPLETE JOKE AND AN EMBARRASSMENT.

        Yup, you're a another British Klitschko hater
        [post=2888]

        yes DAVID HAYE who is known for his glass chin

        David Haye is known for his extremely high KOratio, not for his glass chin. Haye's KO loss is a similar issue like Wlads: Overpacing. That Haye has a glass chin is pure speculation (by Haye haters), which I never believed in, or rather which I always considered to be an invalid conclusion.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #3473 Admin (2011-12-25th)
      Poisening foreman, muslim threats, fixed fights,ali a slow cruiserweight???? tell me what drugs are you taking??

      Look, I understand that it shocks you, because maybe you heard it here for the first time that Ali's co-trainer was bragging about drugging Foreman. And that Ali indeed admitted to threaten his opponent with Black Panthers. And that there was an investigation concerning fixed fights…

      And yes, Clay/Ali (as long as he boxed sub-200, i.e. as a cruiser) seems to be fast ONLY BECAUSE he was called "heavyweight" hence you compare his speed to modern heavyweights.

      But compared to modern cruiserweights he was far less impressive.

      But your shock comes only because Ali is so overhyped.

  • wesley says:
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    [ip2username: Xeki Kusa]
    #3480 wesley (2011-12-29th)

    I must admit i am shocked at the accusations you have thrown around, but i havnt researched it so i will stay silent, although i have never heard this from anywhere else…hmmm.

    Taking weight from other martial arts and amature sports to suit your own arguements is totally flawed and underlines exactly what i have said abot you distorting facts to suit your stats on wlad…
    What have kickboxing super heavyweights got to do with boxing???
    Reality check…You dont make up the weights, you dont decide who is or who isnt a hEavyweight,when these fighters were fighting in there era, they had just got out of multiple world wars, poverty/famine/rashions, and so as a result the general population was smaller, so…the 'heavyweights' of there time were in fact the heaviest people of there day..
    There maybe is only something like 10 people in history that have been bigger than 6.6 240lbs who were world rated. how can you make another division out of that??

    And besides, despite the fact that the greats of past were lighter than the klitchkos they fought and beat fightes of comparable size on occasion, and certainly beat fighters bigger than 215lbs, even if the average weights were smaller than today..that is ofset by the fact that the klitchkos are substantially bigger that even them.
    Alos as i have repeately said, training and diets supplements have improve exponentially since then and so a giant 6.8 vitali can be completely muscle bound, slim and fit at 40 years old, when in reality of yesteryear he would be eating potatoes and steaks and weigh in at around 300lbs…IF THEY HAD ACCESS TO THAT KIND OF FOOD. so you cant compre eras.

    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5745 Tommo (2013-03-28th)

      You can say they were in the "unlimited" division. I like the way they kept the term "heavyweight" for the unlimited division because as you said Wesley, they were the heaviest of their day and they should be compared to the unlimited division throughout history and to the modern day in order see the physical difference between eras. But when they introduced "cruiserweight" or maybe in the future they will move "heavyweight" to 215+ lbs and introduce something like "destroyerweight" lol as well as another class in between lightheavy and heavy, comparisons between the heavies of yesteryear, who were lightheavy, "destroyer" or cruiser by the new standard must only be made to the comparable weight fighters of the modern day for any h2h comparisons to be fair to the old timers who would obviously not be able to compete at the new standard, to be fair to the modern heavies who it is disrespectful to even think they couldn't defeat, and UNFAIR to the CRUISERS and any other division in between lightheavy and heavy that gets made because otherwise they have nobody to be compared to from the past. Think about it, they are same weight and in better condition/better trained than the same sized heavyweight fighters of yesteryear… But they are shunned in comparison because today they are not "nominally" heavyweight. THAT is stupid Wes.

      Only other solution to avoid any confusion is to compare yesteryears Heavyweight records to todays Lightheavy/Heavy/Cruiser/Heavyweight records in total combined and allow the real HW of today to start KOing the cruisers to build up their record and show how crazy it really is. The Cruiser weight limit got introduced for that very reason… Because it was becoming NO LONGER FAIR!

  • DAVID says:
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    [ip2username: Kuda Nyzo]
    #3709 DAVID (2012-01-11th)

    ALI VS KLITSCHKOS??? you people are crazy titles speak for themselves the klitschkos hold every single title in heavyweight division no other boxer has ever accomplished that … Vitaly klitschko record 45 fights 43 wins 2 losses and one to lewis please anybody can watch that lewis fight and see that vitaly beat the sh*t out of lewis!!! but of course the reffs stop the bout due to a eye cut even tho klitschko was winning… and my opinion would KO lewis.. other than that the man has 40 KO's out of 45 fight that means more than 90% of opponents hes faced got knocked the f*ck out …!! now u people can go and say that the heavyweight division sucks now of course since there in no american or UK champs in it !!! but as soon as a american comes around in the next decade im sure its gonna be soo much better hahah CHECK THE FACTS and get real !!!! muhammed ali wouldnt stand a chance vs klitschko !!! not even close!!! like brook lesnar f*cking sux ass thats why he got wooped and retired after 5 pro fights haha what a joke and promotion of a person how can you have 5 fights and be a champ in anything…… ONLY IN AMERICA since most of the people are brainwashed by WWE and think its sooo awesome and real !! hahaha

  • Benny4540 says:
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    [ip2username: Soxe Lipu]
    #3712 Benny4540 (2012-01-21st)

    bah..how come when i post on this and prove you're a gob it doesn't show up? fool.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #3713 Admin (2012-01-21st)

      What? I never delete any comments, except for spam (v-i-a-g-r-a).

      This is your first comment I see.

  • Ali beats klitchko's any day says:
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    [ip2username: Pode Pizu]
    #3732 Ali beats klitchko's any day (2012-01-30th)

    VERY POOR ANALYSIS. YOU TALKED A LOT BUT DIDNT TALK SENSE. THE ONLY ARGUMENT YOU HAVE HERE IS THAT ALI IS NOT HEAVY WEIGHT. ALI FROM 1964 WEIGHT WAS FROM 205 pounds to 240 POUNDS. IF HE WAS IN TODAY'S ERA HIS WEIGHT WOULD HAVE BEEN 220 pounds BECAUSE OF THE NUTRIONIST AND He'll BE PACKING ALL MUSCLES UNLIKE OLD TIMES AND BE STRONGER THAN HE WAS BEFORE BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT TODAY'S TRAINER JOB IS.
    ALSO RECENTLY FLOYD (148 pound) vs FOUGHT ORTIZ (165 pound) and Floyd completely dominated him.
    Tyson's weight was 215 pound and he faced all kinds of fighters. When he was in amature he was still not a heavy weight and he grew into heavy weight division.
    I CAN GIVE YOU COUNTLESS EXAMPLES. IN BOXING WEIGHT IS DOES NOT HOLD THAT MUCH SIGNIFICANCE. I THINK
    IF YOU WEIGHT 210 POUNDS + THEN YOU CAN TAKE OF ANY HEAVY WEIGHT IF YOU HAVE SKILL.
    Your POINT IS SO WEAK THAT I SUGGEST YOU TO LEARN MORE ABOUT BOXING,
    ALSO ONE MISTAKE YOU SAID THAT ALI Couldn't KNOCK OUT OSCAR BONEVANA WHICH IS NOT TRUE JUST SHOWS YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE. I COULD PICK THOUSAND MORE THINGS THAT YOU HAVE WRONG WITH THIS ARTICLE.
    ALI IS SUPERIOR BOXER TO WLADIMIR BECAUSE ALI IS NOT ONE DIMENSIONAL BOXER, HE CAN ADJUST HIMSELF AND BEAT YOU AT YOUR GAME. IF WLADIMIR WANTS TO STAY IN RANGE THEN IT"LL BE JUST EMBARRASSED TO WATCH IF I WERE KLITCHKO FAN LIKE YOU.
    ANOTHER POINT OF YOUR WAS THAT FRAZIER SHOWED THAT ALI CAN BE HIT, WHICH IS COMPLETELY WRONG, FRAZIER IS AN INSIDE BOXER WHILE WLADIMIR IS AN OUTSIDE BOXER, JUST SHOWS YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE.
    IN PRIME NO ONE CAN OUT BOX ALI OTHER THAN FLOYD MAYWEATHER BUT FORTUNATELY FOR ALI HES NOT A HEAVY WEIGHT.
    YOU NEED TO QUIT WRITING AND BECOME A WAITER, MY UNCLE HAS A GOOD RESTURANT AND HE NEEDS A WAITER. IF YOU WANT I CAN TALK ABOUT YOU AND GET YOU EMPLOYED
    I KNOW THE THINGS UNEMPLOYMENT DO TO YOU. I UNDERSTAND
    LET ME KNOW, YOU CAN SEND ME AN EMAIL AND I WILL GET YOU HIRED.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #3733 Admin (2012-01-30th)
      IN PRIME NO ONE CAN OUT BOX ALI OTHER THAN FLOYD MAYWEATHER…. YOU NEED TO QUIT WRITING AND BECOME A WAITER, MY UNCLE HAS A GOOD RESTURANT… I KNOW THE THINGS UNEMPLOYMENT DO TO YOU

      Oh, so this is why you shout, restaurant niece.

      Come back when you calmed down. And please try to at least post something I haven't answered before.

  • Chris says:
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    [ip2username: Jany Poge]
    #3772 Chris (2012-02-20th)

    You know what? There is a way to help illustrate if what this author says is true or not. Was Ali truly just a legend and not a good fighter. Are the Klitchko's among the best of all time? I would suggest all of you get yourself a copy of Fight Night Champion for PS3 or Xbox 360. Both Klitchko brothers are in the game. Ali is too. Along with Foreman, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, David Haye, Lennox Lewis, Joe Frazier, Eric Esch, Mike Tyson etc. etc. So instead of talking, why don't you boys swing it out? Play best out of 10. If you know anything about boxing, you can go into this game with a pretty good advantage. There are no arcade type elements in this boxing title. In fact, EA, the developer of this title actually makes you box. You can't just be a button masher. You'll get knocked out if you try it. You have to box.

    Why do I suggest this? Primarily because facts cannot be argued. Much of what this author says, although questionable as facts, could be true. However, no one will ever know if Ali could beat either of the Klitchko brothers. Personally, I would like to think that he would have walked all over them. I think his speed, especially when he was in his prime, might have been too much for them. I would also like to think he would have smashed their faces so bad that they couldn't see! Again, can't know for sure because none of us has access a time machine. If you truly want to get a rough idea of who could potentially win in a boxing contest, I think the Fight Night boxing simulator probably is the best way to help answer the question. Height and weight do matter in this game! I can tell you from experience, that even a prime Mike Tyson would have a ton of problems with either of the Klitchko's. His arms were so short! He would have to be close enough to kiss his opponent! I kid you not! I did not know this about Mike Tyson until I starting using his character in the game. However, don't you start thinking that short arms are a disadvantage. Mike Tyson in particular was a "distance closing" expert. He could get close enough to kiss you in a hurry! And you are not going to like his kisses! Believe me! And neither would the Klitchko brothers!

    Now as we all know, with any fighter from any era, one perfectly timed shot could spell lights out! So, what are you waiting for? Get this title and prove it to yourself. Or would you rather sit here and argue? Your choice.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Pyvo Redi]
    #3775 Honza (2012-02-22nd)

    You are absolutely right. Fight Night Champion is great game. I had the same case. I faced Wladimir Klitschko with Mike and have a lot of problems because of reach. I almost lost because Wlad is very defencively skilled.I personaly think that Muhammad is the strongest heavyweight in the game. :wink:

  • Chris says:
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    [ip2username: Negi Uva]
    #3776 Chris (2012-02-22nd)

    You know, just from playing around with Fight Night Champion as much as I have, I think it is pretty conclusive that Muhammad Ali was a force to be reckoned with. I think this would still be true if he was boxing today. You can go a step further and watch some Youtube videos of the old Muhammad Ali fights. They are all up at Youtube in their entirety. I don't see any conceivable way that either of the Klitschko brothers would be triumphant over a fighter like Ali. Ali would have been way too much for these guys. No offence to the guy who wrote this blog (and supporters) but I think you should focus less on questionable facts and take a closer look at reality. The Klitschko's have absolutely no advantage if they were to face Ali. Even their 81 inch reach is meaningless considering Ali's reach was 80 inches. And look at how slow they both are? They're too big! Can't move well! You know what? We can just stop. We don't even have to talk about Ali. The Klitschko's could not have beaten him. PERIOD! Iron Mike would have made a mess of them too! I don't care how skilled you think these Klitschko guys are. I've seen all of their fights and they are so boring you could fall asleep! Two punches is all these guys throw! Jab, Hook. Repeat! Try that with Ali or Tyson and see what happens. BAM! Lights out! And let's forget about this Rope a Dope thing. The truth behind that tactic is that Muhammad Ali was an older man when he faced George Foreman all those years ago. I think he was 32 and Foreman was 24. Ali simply could not dance like he used to. So, he did the next best thing. Made Foreman exhaust himself. A prime Ali would not need to Rope a Dope anyone. I can't make this stuff up.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #3777 Admin (2012-02-22nd)
      And look at how slow they both are?

      Wladimir Klitschko was faster than David Haye and David Haye is already one of the fastest boxers to ever live.

      The Klitschko's have absolutely no advantage if they were to face Ali.

      Except their height, reach, experience, weight and punch power. All pretty minor things compared to Ali's….. Ali's….. mouth?

      I've seen all of their fights and they are so boring you could fall asleep

      Yes, yes, boring, same moves, no change, limited arsenal…. Obviously there is much more to their arsenal, otherwise they wouldn't win so easily.

    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5746 Tommo (2013-03-28th)

      LOL You're using a video game as proof of something that is absolutely against common sense AND facts. That's the lowest comeback I've seen yet lol. Especially "oh the game is so lifelike, it convinced me Muhammad is the best" lol kids mate!

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Jylo Geli]
    #3778 Honza (2012-02-23rd)

    You are such a f*cking scum. David Haye was faster than Wlad. Thats´why he was able to went 12 rounds with him. If you watch that fight you will see that Haye had faster reflexes. I hope someone will broke your jaw you Klitschko nuthugger.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #3781 Admin (2012-02-23rd)
      David Haye was faster than Wlad. Thats´why he was able to went 12 rounds with him.

      And Wlad didn't go 12 rounds with him?

  • Chris says:
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    [ip2username: Mupa Nyxo]
    #3779 Chris (2012-02-23rd)

    You know, I tend to hold back a little with mentally ill people but there really is no question that you live in some kind of fantasy world and you are fixated on the Klitschko brothers in particular. Their skill! Their power! Their footwork! Their nothing! The truth is, boxing is pretty much dead and anyone fighting today shouldn't even be watched because they are all so sad. None of these guys today are great. None of them. Nobody cares who they are and no one anywhere is going to put them in the record books next to Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Lewis etc. etc. There is nothing memorable about any of them. And David Haye! Now don't get me started. Is slow the new fast? Am I missing something? Fastest heavyweight that ever lived? Are you high? Missed a couple doses of your medicine? This is just comical now. You should quit this blog and go on to stand up comedy. You know nothing about boxing so why not? And stop labeling this site as objective when it clearly isn't.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #3782 Admin (2012-02-23rd)
      The truth is, boxing is pretty much dead

      Boxing has never been bigger. Except in USA and Britain. Because neither a Briton (Lennox) rules nor an American.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Gapy Xoze]
    #3780 Honza (2012-02-23rd)

    Exactly my point Chris. This blog is in no way objective. It is one big Klitschko propaganda. Did anybody notice that author has problems only with Ali fans and specially Americans and Britons? Admin has absolutely nothing wrong with Klitschko fans when they write here their opinions. Really objective. :wink:

  • Chris says:
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    [ip2username: Mupa Nyxo]
    #3784 Chris (2012-02-24th)

    Alright, you're done and I'm officially done with you. Boxing has never been bigger than it is today? Are you reading your answers before you post them? Get some help. Soon! And then while you are getting better, get a history book about boxing and the greats that truly transformed the sport! And then get a dictionary and look up the word "objective." You're making yourself look very foolish let me tell you. All this painstaking work you put into this blog is going out the window. Your credibility is shot. I hope you realize this.

  • Chris says:
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    [ip2username: Mupa Nyxo]
    #3785 Chris (2012-02-24th)

    And Mr. Fact checker! One other thing. In the clutter above, I see a battle between you and another fella in regards to the Henry Cooper vs Ali fight. First off, Henry Cooper did not get knocked out at the conclusion of that fight. Cooper did knock Ali down but afterward, Mr. Cooper was simply too battered to continue. The referee stepped in and ended the fight because of the cut near Cooper's eye. It's at Youtube, anyone can watch it. Also, at the time you two were arguing about Cooper, you made a comment that the man was dead. Actually, he was not but died in May of 2011. Also, you should address him as the late Sir Henry Cooper! He was awarded this title in 1969. In terms of your comment about the use of illegal smelling salts to revive Ali, that's all just rumor and speculation. No facts were ever presented about that. For a guy who likes to throw facts around, you should put a leash on your own personal thoughts. "Objective!" Remember?

  • Chris says:
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    [ip2username: Mupa Nyxo]
    #3786 Chris (2012-02-24th)

    And also this BS about boxing being hated in the US because no Americans are dominant in the heavyweight division, is just that. BS! I don't care who came from where! If they are a legitimate, talented fighter, I'll back anyone! I don't really like the Klitschko's that much but I certainly don't hate them. A fighter I hate is Floyd Mayweather! And he is an American! He's just a punk! Nothing about him says "Champion." At least the Klitschko's carry themselves well. They "act" like Champions. The both are very professional. Educated. Well spoken. And most important! Not arrogant!

    I know I talked about it earlier in regards to the Klitschko's being boring in terms of their boxing styles. Well, Mayweather is even more boring! He is a very technical fighter. If you want to see precision boxing, you will enjoy his fights. If not, you might as well turn on 60 Minutes! Snoreweather will knock his audience out if you watch him long enough!

  • Chris says:
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    [ip2username: Mupa Nyxo]
    #3788 Chris (2012-02-25th)

    There are no Americans fighting now in the top ranks of professional boxing and people are still watching! Ever heard of Manny Pacquaio? Hello? Is this thing on? Manny is from the Phillipeans! He's not an American and yet people by the millions watch his fights. Why? Like I said, it doesn't matter where these fighters came from as long as they are good fighters. I can't make this stuff up. Amir Khan is not an American either and he has a big fan base. So, this whole thing you say about boxing not being popular in the USA is total nonesense. Boxing as a sport is on the decline and the heavyweight division is only speeding up that decline because they are a joke! I mean, we have 35 and 40 year old men at the top tier of heavyweight boxing. Yes! 35 and 40 years old! Can they bring their canes into the ring? It's all just so silly! If anyone thinks boxing is exciting right now, you have to be high! You also have to be high to think that the Klitschko's could beat Muhammad Ali! I can picture it now. I know what Ali would say if he was around to fight Klitschko.

    "If you were in shock when Whitney Houston expired,
    just wait until I make the Klitschko's retire!"

    Eh? Not exactly as he would say it. He was far more clever than me. I'm sure whatever he would say would be hilarious!

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Gapy Xoze]
    #3792 Honza (2012-02-26th)

    Of course Haye and Wlad both went 12 rounds but Haye was a bit quicker. He was able to duck very fast jabs from Wlad. In another article you said that Wlad had beaten Haye one-sided. Really? Wlad accuracy was 26% and 25%. It was very even fight. And yes Muhammad Ali was great fighter and I do not know why you so against him.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Gapy Xoze]
    #3793 Honza (2012-02-26th)

    I made mistake above.I ment Haye accuracy was 25% and Wlad was 26%. Sorry about that. It does not change fact that it was very even fight.

  • Visitor says:
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    [ip2username: Wula Gyno]
    #3803 Visitor (2012-03-03rd)

    Hey! I was actually looking for a brief overview, since I don't understand, why Ali is said to be the best boxer of all times. Instead I found a good analysis! I never dared to question Ali's latest price in public, since saying something against him seems to "hurt" feelings.
    Anyway… Thanks for this article!!!

  • Mr.SteelHammer says:
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    [ip2username: Vilu Tady]
    #3806 Mr.SteelHammer (2012-03-05th)

    This is an incredibly informative break down, I like this whole site. It seems to be the trend with everybody, the longer ago something happens, the greater it was! —You really shed light on how weak and piddly Ali was. I was totally unaware of the weight classes and his history, thanks! :)

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Bibu Mary]
    #3810 Honza (2012-03-06th)

    Yes this site is for Klitschko fans and those who do not like Muhammad Ali. And by the way Ali was not weak or piddly.

  • Wladimir says:
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    [ip2username: Pode Pizu]
    #3813 Wladimir (2012-03-06th)

    I'm the heavy weight champion Wladimir, Suck my balls and lick my ass the author of this article, I love ass kissers like you:-)

  • MuHAMMAD says:
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    [ip2username: Kyzo Mevi]
    #3825 MuHAMMAD (2012-03-10th)

    The advantage either Klit has over Ali is power and height.Ali is faster,has better cardio,footwork,faster hands,similar reach,a great chin and head movement.Above all his balance is perhaps the best in heavyweight history,better than Tyson and Lewis,better than the Klitschkos.Go through Ali archives and find instances he was off balance in anything he did offensively.It is a massive factor.

    Right so a prime Ali would not be knocked out nor stopped by either bro and would probably weigh,as a modern heavy,around 230ish,not far off from Wlad (235ish) and Vitali(241 in his last fight.Also with modern training he would be lightning fast.

    Technically he would not have problem avoiding Vitalis right hand and would make Wlad miss a lot like he did against Haye.Ali would land plenty and keep up a tremendous pace.Remember Vitali(who claimed injury against Chisora)and Wlad were both exhausted after the Chisora/Haye fight respectively.

    Turning the tables,the best chance either bro has is stopping Muhammad early-Wlad gets stopped as he did against Sanders but later in the fight whilst Vitali gets decisoned.

    Dont get me wrong,i rate Vitali in the top 3 or 4 best ever and Wlad in the top 10-they are that good.I think both of them would have been stopped by a young Tyson (Tubbs-around the 1st Bruno fight)but only Ali,Lewis and maybe Holmes or a prime Bowe would or could have been victorius against them.

    Respectfuly,boxing has fallen behind,perhaps decades,in skills levels-this is due to the amateur programmes declining world wide as well as boxing no longer being a school sport since the early 80's.Its is why boxing trainers will openly tell you many of the old school combinations,defensive techniques and fighter quality have deteriorated.Additionally big guys have moved to other sports like Football,basketball and even rugby.

    Panning their lists,it is tough to see impressive stand out victories-Wlad against an over 40 Mercer? Perhaps the Byrd victory?Just check what old school Ike Ibeabuchi did to the terrified Byrd as comparison.Vitali against out of shape Briggs? Check how long Briggs lasted against Lewis.Yes comparisons are odious but great boxers are great boxers and Ali was freakishly so.No he was not a ko specialist but he did stop Foreman,something no other boxer ever achieved.And,yes,a modern version of him would beat either brother.

    Yes, of the modern boxers,2 are amazing-Manny Pacquaio for his offensive abilities despite his size and Floyd Mayweather as a defensive genius.These guys are the Ferraris.The Klitschkos are more like Toyotas-good at everything,great at nothing but with that solid engine that keeps on functioning and beating mediocre rivals.

    • Aaron says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Piwu Rany]
      #5828 Aaron (2013-03-31st)

      Thaaank youuu soooo much, I gave u 5 stars some sense in this rubble..

      Thanks a lot

  • Yusu says:
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    [ip2username: Kyzo Mevi]
    #3826 Yusu (2012-03-10th)

    "Boxing has never been bigger. Except in USA and Britain. Because neither a Briton (Lennox) rules nor an American"-wrong,the Nielsen marketing figures as well as television networks dont support these conclusions world wide.Additionally far less youngsters partake in boxing since boxing was removed as a school sport worldwide.
    Example the Border and KZN regions in South Africa as well as every coutry in Africa,the Antipodes and Asia has seen huge falls in boxing interest,television figures,newspaper inches and general interest.Also amateur leagues have tailed off and many many boxing gyms have closed down.Brazil took in 60 million for their MMA card whilst boxing couldnt pull 2 million on National t.v.
    The most famous boxing persona on earth is Mike Tyson and the reverence people have for Ali is still astonishing.We ran a marketing survey for the t.v network i work for and in the key 18-35 age segment throughout Africa,only 15% of casual sports fans knew who the Klitschkos were,90% knew Tyson and 70% had heard of Ali.No wiki facts here!

    "Wladimir Klitschko was faster than David Haye and David Haye is already one of the fastest boxers to ever live." On what facts do you base this statement on? How do you know Wlads faster than Haye? Or Haye is one of the fastest ever?

    "Ali would be KOed within 6. Holmes would be KOed within 10"-Biased prediction in making the "facts" suit your opinion.You have never sparred with any of these guys nor have they obviously fought against each other so it is just a biased opinion,not a fact.

    "He never met anyone as hard and efficiently punching as Wladimir or Vitali."How do you know that?Do you have some sort of punching power measure or is this just another "fact"Have you faced any of Ali's opponents? Are you basing it on size? Do the Klitschkos punch harder than Tua,Lewis,Ibeabuchi or Tyson? (All smaller than them).

    "Valuev retired. And additionally Klitschko did something better than beating Valuev. He beat the guys who beat Valuev (Chagaev, Haye)." So using your logic here,Rahman is better than Wlad since he knocked Sanders who knocked Wlad out? Mccall is greater than Vitali since Oliver beat Lewis? Ibeabuchi is greater than Vitali since he stopped the undefeated Byrd in 5 rounds and was far more convincing than either bro against the same opponent.Lewis is greater than Vitali taking their common fight agianst Briggs and so on.

    Hey it seems the riddle is solved IKE IBEABUCHI IS THE GREATEST CHAMP OF ALL (using your logic).He pumelled the undefeated Byrd in 5 rounds and was undefeated in his entire career plus he landed in jail!Oh but wait-Ike was only 6'2-oops we have a problem-too small.

    Sure,size and reach make a difference but i believe that a great chin and punching power are attributes one is born with.As a pair the klits are undoubtedly great but imo not the most exciting.Possibly either of them might have beaten Muhammad but one never knows.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #3828 Admin (2012-03-11th)

      First of all, thank you for your calm and interesting post.

      Now:

      the Nielsen marketing figures as well as television networks dont support these conclusions world wide.Additionally far less youngsters partake in boxing since boxing was removed as a school sport worldwide.

      Klitschko fights are regularly broadcast in 100+ countries. That's a phenomenon.

      Example the Border and KZN regions in South Africa as well as every coutry in Africa,the Antipodes and Asia has seen huge falls in boxing interest,television figures,newspaper inches and general interest.Also amateur leagues have tailed off and many many boxing gyms have closed down.Brazil took in 60 million for their MMA card whilst boxing couldnt pull 2 million on National t.v.

      And how much did they pull in, say, the 1950s?

      Why do you compare boxing to another sport? You are making an invalid statement like "Look how rugby is suffering worldwide! Soccer pulls far higher numbers!"

      The most famous boxing persona on earth is Mike Tyson and the reverence people have for Ali is still astonishing.We ran a marketing survey for the t.v network i work for and in the key 18-35 age segment throughout Africa,only 15% of casual sports fans knew who the Klitschkos were,90% knew Tyson and 70% had heard of Ali.No wiki facts here!

      Mike Tyson is black and a Muslim as is Ali. Muslims have literally NOBODY FAMOUS in their ranks.

      I mention this at
      http://www.heavyweightblog.com/262/criticizing-muhammad-ali-is-racism

      Hence their fame in Africa among blacks and among Muslims is natural. I never claimed that the Klitschkos are more famous than Ali. In fact I believe that Michael Jackson and Muhammad Ali might be the most famous persons of the world, because even my grandmother heard about them.

      "Wladimir Klitschko was faster than David Haye and David Haye is already one of the fastest boxers to ever live." On what facts do you base this statement on? How do you know Wlads faster than Haye? Or Haye is one of the fastest ever?

      From what I _SAW_ and from how Haye's face looked afterwards. Additionally they said this in Bunce's boxing hour. Additionally Haye lost virtually every round thus there no reason to argue that Haye was faster than Wlad.

      "Ali would be KOed within 6. Holmes would be KOed within 10"-Biased prediction in making the "facts" suit your opinion.You have never sparred with any of these guys nor have they obviously fought against each other so it is just a biased opinion,not a fact.

      Yes, that's true. This statement is an opinion of mine and OF COURSE it's an opinion, because it's a pure fantasy fight that never happened and never will.

      So there's no need to point it out. This website features boxing stats, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't also feature my opinion, too.

      "He never met anyone as hard and efficiently punching as Wladimir or Vitali."How do you know that?Do you have some sort of punching power measure or is this just another "fact"Have you faced any of Ali's opponents? Are you basing it on size? Do the Klitschkos punch harder than Tua,Lewis,Ibeabuchi or Tyson? (All smaller than them).

      Vitali Klitschko does not punch harder. Vitali is an accumulation puncher and wins by the sheer amount of punches. But Wladimir punches harder than anyone else as shown by record comparisons and as stated by eye witnesses. Wlad also punches harder than Vitali as has been stated by Chris Byrd.

      "Valuev retired. And additionally Klitschko did something better than beating Valuev. He beat the guys who beat Valuev (Chagaev, Haye)." So using your logic here,Rahman is better than Wlad since he knocked Sanders who knocked Wlad out? Mccall is greater than Vitali since Oliver beat Lewis? Ibeabuchi is greater than Vitali since he stopped the undefeated Byrd in 5 rounds and was far more convincing than either bro against the same opponent.Lewis is greater than Vitali taking their common fight agianst Briggs and so on.

      No, you are using triangular logic ("A beats B beats C. Thus A beats C"), I used a statistic ("A lost B and C, while D won against B and C, hence it's more likely that he wins also against A").

      Now, my statement that you cite ("Wlad did something better than to face Valuev") is a bit unfortunately formulated because I would have rather watched Valuev-Wlad (instead of Chagaev-Wlad). By making that statement I referred to the accusation of "lack of courage".
      And indeed, in terms of "showing courage" Wlad did something better (= facing the 2 winners instead of the loser). In terms of "interesting fight" I would have preferred far more to watch Wlad-Valuev than Wlad-Chagaev.

      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5790 Tommo (2013-03-30th)

        I live in Australia so I'm not aware of how boxing is viewed worldwide. I believe boxing is very big in Europe and former Soviet BLOC but to what extent I don't know. I have witnessed a decline in boxing popularity in Australia/America though. I think the fact it must compete with MMA, BJJ and kickboxing hurts it. I was born in '81 and I should judge that most people born pre 1975 (almost 40yrs age) and over would still prefer boxing to the "poofier fight sports" of today that have become popular in younger generation. I hope boxing remains strong worldwide and bounces back in my country. MMA and kick box is just not the same.

  • Martin Badger says:
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    [ip2username: Simu Daxy]
    #3829 Martin Badger (2012-03-11th)

    What a hilarious article! The brothers might, possibly, serve Ali as sparring partners. But when your career is built on beating the likes of Liston, Patterson, Frazier, Foreman, Norton etc etc, I doubt if that class of sparring partner would be good enough. You have either no knowledge of boxing whatsoever or you just wanted to give us all a laugh. Other fighters who would make mincemeat of the brothers include Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Louis, Lewis and Holmes.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #3830 Admin (2012-03-11th)
      include Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Louis, Lewis and Holmes.

      Yeah, Wlad would surely start shivering after taking a look at that Joe Louis picture at the beginning of my article.

  • bill cage says:
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    [ip2username: Geki Gupa]
    #3840 bill cage (2012-03-30th)

    Ali was the GREATEST of all time. He defeated the greatest heavyweights of all time: George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, etc. The sh*tko brothers have beaten nobody but bums. All heavyweight boxers now are complete bums. The sport is dying. Muhammad Ali is a legend. You keep talking sh*t about his fighting style, but guess what, he won. That's all that matters. He was so fast and so sharp that he would hit his opponents at will and move out of range so that he could not be hit back. You are a hater. You are mad that Ali is a boxing legend (forever) and the sh*tko brothers will always be remembered as a guys who were champions in an era where all their opponents are bums. You keep comparing weight and you act like that matters. It does to some extent, but not really. Jack Dempsey beat the f*ck out so many people who were way taller and heavier than him. He would have murdered the both the sh*tko brothers. George Foreman in his prime would have knocked both of them out in the first round. Boxing is dead. The sh*tko brothers suck dick or coke. Ali is the greatest of all time. Go suck a dick.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #3841 Admin (2012-03-30th)

      Yawn. I answered all the broken record nonsense already in my posts and in my articles.

      As a starter: Read [post=932]

      Unfortunately for Americans like you we non-Americans have eyes to see. And what we see from Ali are sleep inducing clinch- and featherfests. Barely any action or KOs.

      Come back when you can actually point out the round and minute that features Ali's supposedly superior skills. But please: No sub-200 fights. Compare Ali's sub-200 fights to nowadays cruisers. And please no handicapped opponents like Frazier or Williams.

  • bill cage says:
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    [ip2username: Geki Gupa]
    #3842 bill cage (2012-04-01st)

    You are obsessed with weight, but you fail to realize that it does not matter. A lighter guy can have an advantage over a bigger, slower guy ("Please: No sub-200 fights"). How was Frazier handicapped? Are you a retard? Mr. Wladimir sh*tschko was tko'd by Purity. Corrie Sanders tko'd him in 2 rounds. IN 2 ROUNDS! The guy has no chin and can't fight. Muhammad Ali has never been stopped until his last couple fights when he was old and weak. He would never let a guy like Sanders tko him. I mean George Foreman hit him with his best shots and it didn't phase him. And to insist that he was poisoned is hilarious. You and your conspiracy theories. I guess George Bush did 9/11 and Hitler is still alive too, huh? lol. Lamon Brewster tko'd Mr. sh*tschko in 5 rounds as well. Perhaps "running" like Muhammad Ali would have served his sorry ass well in these fights. lol. Who cares about knockout percentage? It is irrelevant. The point of boxing is to win the fight, not to win the fight by knockout. Damn ur a hater. Ali's fights were very action-packed. All his fights with Frazier and the rumble in the jungle were some of the most thrilling fights in boxing's history. Admit it. Ali was a better fighter. And to say that because Ali didn't hit Foreman when he was going down is a sign of his cowardice is the dumbest thing I ever heard. There's nothing brave in hitting a guy that is falling to the ground. Why damage his brain/body anymore than it should be? In fact, it's quite the opposite. It takes much more courage to refrain from doing that. He was that confident that he would win. I have destroyed your whole article. You are worthless. Stop writing, because your not any good at it. Find a new hobby.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #3843 Admin (2012-04-01st)

      Read all my articles. They address ALL of your TYPICAL "arguments".

      From the nonsense that "weight doesn't matter" to "If Corrie Sanders can do it, then Ali can do it" to "KO ratio is irrelevant" etc etc.

      And, yes, even your "find a new hobby" is typical for AliFants.

      I listened to guys like you for years. You have no clue about boxing and everything you have are you laughable copy-n-paste arguments.

      It's unbelievable how predictable AliFants are.

      I am even open to the possibility that Larry Holmes could win against a Klitschko. Or even Mike Tyson. Or Foreman. And Lennox anyway.
      All these opponents are far more likely to win against a Klitschko.

      But Ali?

      Ali would neither win as the scrawny chested boy nor as the lard heavyweight.

      The same applies to Lennox Lewis. Ali would have NO CHANCES against Lennox Lewis.

      It's simply neither in Ali's record, nor in his in-ring-performance.

  • bill cage says:
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    [ip2username: Geki Gupa]
    #3844 bill cage (2012-04-01st)

    I'm not going to read your stupid articles. I never said that if "Sanders can do it then Ali can too." I simply said that Ali would never allow himself to be tko'd in 2 rounds by ANYBODY. It is a fact (not an argument) that just because A weighs more than B then A will beat B in a boxing match. Your weight argument is moot. It is a fact (not an argument) that the KO percentage of a boxer is irrelevant to how good he is.

    You claim that Mike Tyson could have beaten Mr.sh*tscho. Mike Tyson's legendary mentor, trainer, and boxing scholar Cus D' Amato (who knows more about boxing than either you and I) told Mike Tyson that Mike could not beat Muhammad Ali. He told him that NOBODY can beat Muhammad Ali. So, to sit here and say that Mike Tyson could beat Mr.sh*tscho, but Muhammad Ali would stand no chance is just plain ignorance.

    I stated on my last post that Muhammad Ali only got stopped in his last couple fights. I was wrong. He was only stopped by Larry Holmes. He lost because he was at the end of his career and he was given thyroid hormones to help him lose weight which made him very weak. He should have never even taken that fight.

    Moreover, I believe that you are very envious of Muhammad Ali and what he had the balls to accomplish; and how he was (and still is) loved and held in high regards for not only what he did inside the ring, but for what he did outside the ring. I'm not going to post another comment on your site, but I want to leave you with this quote that I came across the other day. It goes like this: "Fact: Haters don't really hate you. In fact, they hate themselves because you are a reflection of what they wish to be."

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #3845 Admin (2012-04-01st)
      I'm not going to read your stupid articles.

      Haha, even this statement is typical for AliFants and I wrote even an article about it called [post=280]

      You see, whatever you try, I pre-answered it already.

      "Fact: Haters don't really hate you. In fact, they hate themselves because you are a reflection of what they wish to be."

      Wow, you want to be Klitschko? (Or as you call them "Sh*tshko") And Jews want to be Hitler?

      Additionally I don't hate. Nearly everything I write is based on hard facts. What you write is pure speculation. For example "Ali would never allow himself to be tko'd in 2 rounds by ANYBODY". That is pure mythology. Ali didn't even face a hard hitting southpaw like Sanders, who would be one of the heaviest opponents Ali met in the ring, thus your statement is not only mythology but mythology based on speculation.

      He lost because he was at the end of his career and he was given thyroid hormones to help him lose weight

      Even this statement is typical for AliFants, because you convert a failure into a virtue:

      1) Poor, poor Ali. He was so fat.
      2) Poor, poor Ali. To lower his weight and enhance his performance he took some drugs.

      The correct statements however would be the following:

      1) Ali was as old as Vitali Klitschko now.
      2) Ali was fat.
      3) Ali tried to increase his winning chances by taking drugs.
      4) Ali was beaten from pillar to post.
      5) Maybe the drugs helped Ali to perform better and without the drugs he would have performed even worse.

      So typical, AliFant, so typical.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Kixu Taxy]
    #3847 Honza (2012-04-02nd)

    So typical, AliFant, so typical.

    It seems that defending Muhammad Ali and being his fan is some sort of sin and failure. I think everybody has right to be fan of anybody.
    1) Ali was as old as Vitali Klitschko now.
    2) Ali was fat.
    Ali was fat in fights against Berbick,Young,Shavers, Evangelista (4 fights out of 61). He was starting suffer from parkinson diasease when he faced Larry. He did take two years break (Vitalij took four years)and already had more fights than Vitalij who is obviously a steroid user just like Wlad. So do not use your drug arguments okay?

  • hunter says:
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    [ip2username: Geki Gupa]
    #3848 hunter (2012-04-02nd)

    OMG! I just saw the Sanders vs Klitschko fight! Everybody watch the fat slob Sanders beating Klitschko like he's his daddy! How embarassing to compare this guy to Muhammad Ali.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqEANlBbhsA

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #3849 Admin (2012-04-02nd)

      Ali was fatter than Sanders, yet couldn't punch as hard. So what exactly are you trying to say?

    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5748 Tommo (2013-03-28th)

      That really was Wladimir's worst moments lol. He really did look like a startled deer in the headlights lol

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Gajy Xode]
    #3850 Honza (2012-04-02nd)

    Ali was fatter than Sanders, yet couldn't punch as hard.

    He was maybe fatter in fight against Berbick,Young and Shavers. Stop making Muhammad fatter than he actually was okay? I would call Muhammad chubby not fat (same with Larry Holmes). I think that Sanders weight was around 230 lbs right? Muhammad was between 215 – 225 lbs (yes later in his career he moved over 230 lbs). You always come up with Ali past Manilla fight. That is not fair.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Gajy Xode]
    #3851 Honza (2012-04-02nd)

    I have american flag. Why? But on the other way: author of this article can call me american complainer:-)

  • hunter says:
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    [ip2username: Geki Gupa]
    #3852 hunter (2012-04-03rd)

    Watch Klitschko's fights. He's slow, got no footwork, and can't box because he works out to much. All that excess muscle from the steroids that he takes makes him slow and unable to punch properly. A boxer like Ali who in his prime was so slim, trim, and fast would beat the living daylights out of Klitschko. Sonny Liston and George Foreman were faster, better boxers, and hit harder than Kiltschko. Ali destroyed them. Even fat ass Sanders was too fast for Klitschko and exposed his lack of heart, chin, and boxing skills. Klitschko just plain quit. You could see it in his eyes. When someone is not scared of his steroid induced muslces, he becomes a coward. What makes you think Klitschko would stand a chance against a prime Ali?

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #3853 Admin (2012-04-03rd)

      Yeah, I watched Klitschko fights. He is none of the things you say.

      A boxer like Ali who in his prime was so slim, trim, and fast would beat the living daylights out of Klitschko.

      Ali in his prime would be boxing in the cruiserweight division. He wouldn't even be allowed near a Klitschko.

      What makes you think Klitschko would stand a chance against a prime Ali?

      Read the whole article again. And then again.

      • hunter says:
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        [ip2username: Geki Gupa]
        #3854 hunter (2012-04-03rd)

        Klitschko could not carry ali's jock strap. He looks like he would weigh 160 pounds if he was not on steroids. Rumble young roid head rumble!!

        Ali in his prime was anywhere from 210-220 pounds. This means that he would be in the heavyweight division not the cruserweight. And Klitschko is the one who would never be allowed near Ali because Ali is 2 fast.

        • Admin says:
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          [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
          #3856 Admin (2012-04-03rd)
          Klitschko could not carry ali's jock strap. He looks like he would weigh 160 pounds if he was not on steroids.

          You see, that's the difference between us.

          I base my articles on facts.

          You base your opinion on hate and pure speculation ("Vitali Klitschko wouldn't be 6'6" if not for steroids").

  • hunter says:
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    [ip2username: Viku Jady]
    #3858 hunter (2012-04-03rd)

    Listen man, I'm not hating or speculating. I'm speaking purely in terms of facts. I think you got me all wrong. I'm not saying that Wladimir Klitschko is a terrible or bad fighter. He's pretty talented. He's just about as good as Butterbean. I think Butterbean/Klitschko would make one hell of a good fight.

  • dara_demon says:
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    [ip2username: Kawy Bope]
    #3877 dara_demon (2012-04-18th)

    One of the best if not the best blog I have read on line. You have put a massive amount or work and research into it and I tip my hat to you. Tonight I celebrate my 34th birthday on this planet that has been taken over by gangster bankers and corrupt and evil governments so I will put forward a more insightful response to your blog over the coming days.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Pyvo Redi]
    #3890 Honza (2012-04-25th)

    Here are words said by Lennox Lewis: "We've got two champions right now, two brothers who won't fight each other, and that kind of devalues the whole heavyweight scene. That's what we're stuck with.

    "There's definitely too many titles out there. When somebody says they're the champion, you can't help asking the champion of what?

    He said: "I was saying a while ago that Vitali's looking pretty heavy on his feet and is really relying on his size right now.

    I totally agree with him. If only there would be only one Klitschko. When two best boxers work as a team it really does not help their legacy. I also agree that Vitali is getting old. Believe or not I think 38 old version of Lewis could beat 40 old version of Vitali.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #3961 Admin (2012-05-02nd)
      I also agree that Vitali is getting old. Believe or not I think 38 old version of Lewis could beat 40 old version of Vitali.

      Of course Lewis COULD. Lewis is one of the best (if not the best) heavyweight of all time.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Nady Sore]
    #3958 Honza (2012-05-02nd)

    This was said by you on boxingscene.com: "However it shows what I have been telling all along: The Clay's followers are in reality a sect of Claytomaniacs watching his fights on their knees."

    So that means I am retarded assh*le because I like Muhammad Ali? You also said there that Holmes was Mikes bitch in their fight. You really are Klitschko fanboy and this site is only a trick to convince people that you are not actually biased.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #3960 Admin (2012-05-02nd)

      Everybody is free to like a fighter. You can like Ali or Frazier or Holmes.

      Be it for Ali's mouth or his charisma or his doom and gloom.

      But it's an entirely different level to claim that Ali would have a chance against Lennox Lewis, the Klitschkos or even Tony Thompson.

      What Ali did in that ring might have been great (I personally don't think so, but whatever) or even "out of this world". The point is that whatever Ali did was against far worse opponents than the current top tier.

      And that statement of mine is only based on what eyes can see. As soon as you start to actually analyze the opponents of Ali and analyze Ali's performance then Ali loses even more so of his "superiority".

      • Honza says:
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        [ip2username: Gajy Xode]
        #3966 Honza (2012-05-03rd)

        I have problem with your constant attacks against Muhammad Ali fan base. And by the way you can not say that Ali would not be competive against Lewis and Wlad. You can say he can not be if you are God who knows everything. Everything you are saying here is just your fantasy just like any other boxing fan who is comparing boxers from different eras. Stats mean a lot but it is not a prove that you are 100% right all the time. Sorry for my english.

        • Admin says:
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          [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
          #3967 Admin (2012-05-03rd)

          Of course there is a chance that Ali wins. But that chance would be something like 1 in 30 fights or so.

          • Scott says:
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            [ip2username: Jura Sywo]
            #7358 Scott (2014-06-30th)

            Ali fought the best heavyweights of his era, and perhaps of all time. Beat them all. Today's heavyweight division is an absolute joke.

            Until a champion emerges that takes on all comers (including his brother), and wins, this is a stupid discussion.

            Also, today's heavyweights are buyoed by steriods and HGH.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Gajy Xode]
    #3968 Honza (2012-05-03rd)

    Be it for Ali's mouth or his charisma
    Exactly. Ali had charisma. Not like Lewis or Klitschko brothers.
    But it's an entirely different level to claim that Ali would have a chance against Lennox Lewis, the Klitschkos or even Tony Thompson.

    Yeah it is blashemy to even think that Ali could be their oponnent. I still can´t stand what you said about some sort of people. So let me show you some "Claytomaniacs" I know: My father, my brother, Wlad Klitschko, Vitali Klitschko, Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, George Foreman, Manny Steward, Angelo Dundee, Hulk Hogan, Sly Stallone, Arnold Schwarzenegger and myself. You are right. Weare some real sect :lol:

  • Marko says:
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    [ip2username: Savy Voje]
    #4921 Marko (2012-09-24th)

    One thing you probably didn't think about.Only those with brain and scientists take doping into account. With todays steroids and science,Ali would be 100+ kgs. You could also time travel backwards and Klitschko brothers would be much smaller(weight).

    For example,nothing changed in bodybuilding training(or you could use 100m sprint as example) from 1970's except steroids. What built muscle then ,builds it now ,but 40 i.u.'s of insulin,10+ i.u's of HGH ,and 7+ grams of testosterone make a lot of difference :wink: .

  • honza says:
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    [ip2username: Nidu Sady]
    #5005 honza (2012-10-09th)

    Do me a favor. Instead of Muhammad. show us analysis of possible fight between wlad and riddick bowe. They are both similiar size and ko power. so just try somebody else. thank you.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #5007 Admin (2012-10-09th)

      The analysis is simple: Bowe would throw his belt in the trash as he did against Lennox.

      On December 14th 1992 Bowe dumped his belt into a trash can to tell the world that he is not fighting Lennox. That was 1.5 months after Lennox TKO2 Ruddock. Obviously Bowe was afraid of punchers.

      • Honza says:
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        [ip2username: Vuga Jygo]
        #5008 Honza (2012-10-09th)

        Yeah. Or maybe you are too lazy to do something else than bashing old timers right?

        • josip says:
          flag
          [ip2username: Teti Muga]
          #5549 josip (2013-03-12th)

          "Yeah. Or maybe you are too lazy to do something else than bashing old timers right?"

          i love old timers, but dude, i dont like to live in delusion like rest of us fans, im really thankfull to him for writting this article, truth must be said…

          • Tommo says:
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            [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
            #5602 Tommo (2013-03-24th)

            This sort of response is good. It shows those that blindly follow Ali without thinking for themselves that it is not just about senseless insults but a proper analysis of what would actually happen.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Nady Sore]
    #5011 Honza (2012-10-10th)

    Sorry but you really pissed me of by that Riddick Bowe argument. It really seems that you are too lazy to do some interesting analysis. So you come up with such a crap.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #5012 Admin (2012-10-10th)
      So you come up with such a crap.

      Bowe came up with such crap.

      How in the world do you expect Bowe to perform against Wlad when already against Lennox (who is a worse puncher than Wlad) he ran ducking.

      Additionally I am not your "analysis boy". When I will have the desire or the time I maybe will write about Bowe-vs-Wlad. I didn't even write about Lennox Lewis vs Wladimir Klitschko, nor Wladimir Klitschko vs Larry Holmes so far. So Bowe-vs-Wlad wasn't even on my to-do-list.

      However, one thing is for sure: Bowe would have more chances KOing Wlad than Muhammad Ali. And Ali would have more chances running away than Bowe.

      • Honza says:
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        [ip2username: Zura Pyso]
        #5013 Honza (2012-10-10th)

        How in the world do you expect Bowe to perform against Wlad when already against Lennox (who is a worse puncher than Wlad) he ran ducking.

        Vitali ducked Rahman. Is that mean that he is also a crap? Lewis ducked Byrd. That means he is crap because of that? Are you even the same person you idiot? in one article you said that Bowe vs Wlad would be clash of powers (I agree with that). Bashing Riddick because of one act of his career is ridicilous. Bowe and Lewis fought on olympics and both fought well. But No Riddick once ducked Lewis in heavyweights so that means he is crap right? That Wlad is better puncher than Lennox is pure speculation. But I could see with my own eyes that Lewis was much better puncher than Vitali. You are truly terrible Klitschko fanboy.

        • Admin says:
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          [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
          #5014 Admin (2012-10-10th)

          1) Vitali didn't "duck" Rahman. Vitali retired because of health problems. Stop spinning.
          2) Bowe threw his belt into a garbage can (literally and in front of the press) for only 1 reason: To not face Lewis.
          3) Yes, Lennox ducked Byrd. Lennox dropped his belt to not face mandatory Byrd. Lennox wanted no part of southpaws in his entire career.
          4) Lennox may very well be a better single-punch puncher than Vitali.

          • Honza says:
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            [ip2username: Zura Pyso]
            #5015 Honza (2012-10-10th)

            Lennox may very well be a better single-punch puncher than Vitali.

            And George Foreman also.
            Wladimir Klitschko fought (and won) against 2 opponents Vitali Klitschko lost to: ·Chris Byrd (lost to in the ring) and ·Hasim Rahman (lost to by not appearing in the ring).

            Theese are your words.

            • Admin says:
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              [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
              #5016 Admin (2012-10-10th)

              1) Yes, and Foreman also.

              2) Yes, Wlad finished Vitali's unfinished business. Vice versa, too. But Vitali didn't _duck_ Rahman.

              • Tommo says:
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                [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
                #5603 Tommo (2013-03-24th)

                Honza has a point here admin. Yes you're not our analysis boy and you've clearly already invested lots of time and effort. But I think Bowe vs Wlad is a very fair article to write, definitely more competitive than Ali vs Wlad that's for sure. And Lennox Wlad would be a highly controversial topic as well.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Vuga Jygo]
    #5018 Honza (2012-10-11th)

    Yes, and Foreman also.

    Thank you for agreement. A few days ago I watched some matches with old George and found out one very strange strategy. He sometimes attentionally throw jab a missed only to prepare his straight to connect. Very good trick dont you think? Also George was arm puncher. He was not using leg movement to increase the impact.

    • josip says:
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      [ip2username: Teti Muga]
      #5548 josip (2013-03-12th)

      old forman had no knowledge of the game, he was stronger than all and he always went bone to the bone, foreman learned to box after 10 years of stoppage but than it was too late

  • Aaron says:
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    [ip2username: Viku Vaty]
    #5043 Aaron (2012-10-22nd)

    hehehe..f*cking hilarious article…nerdy troll that u r..finally found a groupie camp for the Klits din you hehehe ?

    ok cant belive im bothering to reply to you, but anyways, here goes, The Klits are extremely smart fighters and they've a great trainer in Mannie no doubts..but hahaha trashing Ali so you can sleep at night is what girls do…

    Ali had bad reflexes hehehe ? Ali was a powder puncher ? Foreman was the best ? and Ali was cowardly in not landing the sucker punch ?

    You've got the stats to manipulate facts alrite but hahaha..man the vehemence in your sh*t is unbelievable, im beginnin to think ur one of his illegitimate kids

    Anyways, to explain 2 things must be considered if Ali and the Klits fought in the same era same division, and lets say came to the ring with the same winning momentum, they're famous for, Ali would win on points against Vitali, cos the elder Klit is not the best on technique, and Ali can take a punch

    What interests me tremendously is the Ali Wlad fight, great technique, but Heart is the only thing Wlad needs to prove he has, he's never been in a see-saw in fight anyways this sh*t's gonna fall on deaf ears cos your a Klit groupie..wasted my time..anways..ease up on the hate man, i bet your gonna be mad and practice punchin your keyboard to feel macho after this..

    To trash an era of awesome fighters to support great fighters in a suspect division will always be a speculative result not a one-sided groupie trash u wrote up with ur manipuative stats…troll

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #5044 Admin (2012-10-22nd)
      You've got the stats to manipulate facts

      Yep, I have the stats and you don't.

      one-sided groupie trash u wrote up with ur manipuative stats… troll…

      But, I bet, had I claimed "Ali is teh best. Klitschko era sucks. Suspect division." then you wouldn't have called me "one-sided" but "knowledgeable".

      i bet your gonna be mad and practice punchin your keyboard to feel macho after this..

      Quite the opposite. I LOL'd.

  • Aaron says:
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    [ip2username: Lany Dode]
    #5191 Aaron (2012-10-29th)

    I ll write this out for you,

    Styles make fights,

    sure stats play a part, but if stats were sacrosanct, then a Foreman would beat Ali on paper,

    and a Vitali would get that decision against lewis, and let me tell you I am a fan of the Klits,

    cos they're the best today..and i saw that trash ur manipulated about the Ali Foreman fight, Dont use that to answer me, the same with the Vitali Lewis decision, I no Big V was leadin on points on all 3 cards, and it still is to Lewis' credit that he got it won. Research and a fighter's heart are two different things,

    In your analysis, you don't take the mental make up of the fighter also, Tyson losin to Buster Douglas, is another example, Vitali is still better than Wlad because he has shown a lot more heart.

    Wlad simply does'nt have a claim to greatness cos i cant think of a time he was taken to the brink, had a toe to toe all out bar brawl with anybody, he's got the stats and i love the champ he is,

    But his legacy don't mean squat until he's been on the ropes losin and then come back to show heart and win. Don't say he's so good that none can stand up to a bar brawl with him, the division is sad and it sucks, Thanks to Don King and the WBC over the years

    Anyways, 2 things, stats are part of it, heart and mental make-up , you don't have that, you aint squat in the hittin business..

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #5213 Admin (2012-10-29th)

      1) Arguing with "hearts" and "brains" is a neverending story. I prefer to go by FACTS ALONE (= records).
      2) You convert a failure into a virtue, as is so often the case with nostalgists. Being against the ropes and clearly losing a round is a failure. Being NOT in a such a situation is a virtue. The same guys who claim "that the Klits have never been tested" are the same who complain about Wladimir Klitschko being against the ropes vs Sam Peter.

      sure stats play a part, but if stats were sacrosanct, then a Foreman would beat Ali on paper

      Says who?

      and a Vitali would get that decision against lewis

      Says who?

      • Aaron says:
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        [ip2username: Tepi Xura]
        #5224 Aaron (2012-10-29th)

        ur too dumb to merit an argument..says who ha ha is that all u can come up with

        and u for a researcher guy, u pretty easily generalize, while an actual boxing researcher would do his bit of due diligence and categorize fighters in the heart category as well…

        Anyways prolly the Klit brothers would take pity on u maybe let u walk their dog or somethin..

        This trash u wrote up lacks credence cos in research nothin is conclusive; its comparative and analytical, cuda ben such a good argument, and its not that i missed u din bring up the Tyson- Douglas fight in your ever so meticulous way :)

        f*ck it ur page ur wish..ok Klits wud blow everyone, The Klits wud blow He-man out of the ring…

        • josip says:
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          [ip2username: Teti Muga]
          #5547 josip (2013-03-12th)

          ali>wlad>lennox>vitali, i could write 20000 words to prove that but than you would not read

        • Tommo says:
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          [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
          #5749 Tommo (2013-03-29th)

          Look it's simple Aaron, if Ali competed today as a heavyweight he would be a good journeyman. He'd be hard pressed to make even gate keeper status. You see there role is in keeping young up and comers away (like Tyson Fury) from the champs/top contenders. Could Ali do that today? Possibly. But very unlikely. More likely that Tyson Fury, David Price, Bryant Jennings etc, would punch their way straight through Ali into a title shot! I mean don't worry about Wladimir, could Ali really beat Tyson Fury? It'd be unlike any fight he'd ever fought before.

          • Aaron says:
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            [ip2username: Piwu Rany]
            #5830 Aaron (2013-03-31st)

            simple eh…ha ha ha unbelievable…

            i see a truck load of analysis and logical thinkin in ur reply..nice work man..seriously :roll:

            • Tommo says:
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              [ip2username: Xupa Gyko]
              #6028 Tommo (2013-04-13th)

              Anytime lol :) But sarcasm aside, Who has Ali fought let alone defeated that could conceivably be competitive with even Fury as an example? Only 3 person in 60 odd fights (George Foreman/Larry Holmes/Ron Lyle). If you can think of anyone else enlighten me!

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Tone Xizu]
    #5244 Honza (2012-10-30th)

    No, they hadn't. Click the links that I mention at the top of this article where I analyze Shavers and Frazier and Foreman. Wladimir Klitschko's power is SEVERAL leagues above them.

    George Foreman is comparable to Klitschkos. Especially when he hits harder than Vitali for sure.

    • josip says:
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      [ip2username: Teti Muga]
      #5546 josip (2013-03-12th)

      he might hit harder, but his punch quality, speed, accurancy, combo and resoursfullnes is not close to vitali.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Woke Bigu]
    #5256 Honza (2012-11-05th)

    I have just found out that manny Stewars died. He was great trainer. But maybe now Wlad is gonna finally loose. Do not forget that it was manny who made him such a great fighter. :)

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #5257 Admin (2012-11-05th)

      Manny polished some rough edges. pre-Steward-Wlad was a far better fighter than pre-Steward-Lennox.

      • Honza says:
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        [ip2username: Vuga Jygo]
        #5258 Honza (2012-11-06th)

        That is your opinion. I think opossite. But I would never use term far better. That is very unfair to Lennox. They were both good.

        • Admin says:
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          [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
          #5259 Admin (2012-11-06th)

          Just compare their performance against common opponents.
          pre-Manny Wlad vs Phil Jackson.
          pre-Manny Wlad vs Ray Mercer.

          pre-Manny Lennox vs Phil Jackson.
          post-Manny Lennox vs Ray Mercer.

          I don't only mean the outcomes, but also the in-ring performance.

          The HBO broadcast of Wlad vs Mercer is especially interesting because you hear Manny as a commentator talking about Wlad's pre-Manny performance.

          • Honza says:
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            [ip2username: Sowe Divu]
            #5261 Honza (2012-11-07th)

            I have not seen their fight against Phil Jackson but do not forget that Ray Mercer was getting very old when he faced Wlad. He was much much better when he faced Lennox. On the other hand watch their fight with Botha. Lennox absolutely dominated him but Wlad had some problems. You could see with your own eyes that Botha was scared much more of Lennox. But than again that was Lennox Lewis at his prime. What I did not relise was fact that young lennox was very quick. Just like Wlad.

            • Honza says:
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              [ip2username: Sowe Divu]
              #5262 Honza (2012-11-07th)

              You were talking about common oponents. I have some examples about comparing common oponents: Young Cassius had beaten Archie Moore much easier than Marciano did. Does it make him better boxer or even better puncher? No the difference is that Archie was very old when he faced Cassius. Do you want another one? Floyd Patterson koed Cooper when Cassius only tkoed him. So you could say that Floyd was better. I hope you understand my point. :)

            • Admin says:
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              [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
              #5263 Admin (2012-11-07th)

              I am not talking about the quality/age of opponent here. And I am not claiming that Mercer was the best win on Wlad's resume.

              I am comparing pre-Manny Wlad to pre-Manny Lennox. I find that unpolished Wlad looked (= in-ring impressiveness) looked better than unpolished Lennox.

              • Honza says:
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                [ip2username: Bitu Kaly]
                #5264 Honza (2012-11-07th)

                And I am not claiming that Mercer was the best win on Wlad's resume.

                But it was definetly one of his best. Ray Mercer was one of the best heavyweights of 90s.
                I am not talking about the quality/age of opponent here.
                I wanted to show you that age is and can be a difference maker.

  • Aaron says:
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    [ip2username: Suja Wybo]
    #5298 Aaron (2012-11-16th)

    hahaha came here after watchin the Marius Wach fight hehehe Wlad s a kid..

    Wach that chap was in a title fight i cant believe it, u know whos on his resume hehe, Kevin Mcbride, washed up Mcbride who beat washed up Tyson

    and this guy finds his boxing nuts in round 5 throw a few punches and Wlad gets saved by the bell..

    You must be all of 14 or smthin cos u said u watched boxing all ur life, what a disgrace to the sport, Easter euros my ass, those idiots have size and no brains

    Tyson wuda hoisted Wlad in the ring at half mast, that chap cant handle pressure if his life depended on it, Klit fan here, I yearn to watch men fightin not washerwomen…

    Ali haha my god that man had a diff strategy for every opponent bigger, smaller, fatter, whiter,

    Blin showed up from Europe got owned, Mildenberger showed up, troubled him with a southpaw still got owned…

    Wlads being carried u fool, want to talk how great he his get him a fight with Boytsov then we'll see..hehehe Boytsov's the only guy in my book that can trouble Wlad and save his legacy…

    Wlad don ve heart man just dont have heart, Vitali now thats a champion, Wlad wouldn go six rounds with a prime Vitali, their mother must be the other version of Don King cos now the belts cant be unified and Vitali wont fight Wlad, trust me there's more respect for Vitali from the decision and than Wlad…

    He cant take pressure, Wlad just cnnot

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #5300 Admin (2012-11-16th)

      You are a very nice example of how brainwashed AliFants are. Just take a look at these 2 statements:

      1) "Wach that chap was in a title fight i cant believe it, u know whos on his resume hehe, Kevin Mcbride, washed up Mcbride who beat washed up Tyson"

      2) "Blin showed up from Europe got owned, Mildenberger showed up, troubled him with a southpaw still got owned…"

      When Wladimir Klitschko fought Wach, Wach was 251 lbs, unbeaten, and coming off wins against 49-4, 21-8, 35-9, 23-3.
      When Ali fought Blin, Blin was 198 lbs, had won only 27 times in 42 bouts, and coming off wins against 18-20, 24-14, 21-22, 7-7 and a loss against 32-2. Additionally it wasn't even a championship, let alone a world championship.

      Oh, and Blin is a whole career bum (30-12).

      Everybody who is reading this should know that _THIS_ is exactly how Klitschko haters and AliFants work. They don't know what they are talking about and they use the tiniest opportunities to dis Wlad and hype Ali.

      Wlad wouldn go six rounds with a prime Vitali, their mother must be the other version of Don King cos now the belts cant be unified

      However, that's funny, actually.

      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Xupa Gyko]
        #6043 Tommo (2013-04-14th)

        LOL at King statement too. Aaron tries hard to save his golden child. I agree with him that Wach is an acro oaf compared to Wlad. Despite being heavier, Wlad looks heaps stronger/fitter. However Wach would steam roll the golden age no doubt whatsoever. And before anyone thinks Foreman, if Wlad couldn't KO Wach, I doubt George could either.

  • Aaron says:
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    [ip2username: Suja Wybo]
    #5299 Aaron (2012-11-16th)

    you might come up by sayin Wlad won every round hehehe, m talking about the dyin seconds of round 5 or so when Mariusz stumbled on his balls, Wlad was gettin bombed and as Mariusz sorta warmed up to the idea of makin Wlad a bitch, someone rang the bell

    after the bell again Marius came out like Wlads wife ready to get beat…

    Eras gettin better my ass, my cousins fight their girls better than these guys

    Wlad wuda gotten owned by Ali, all he an do is Clinch, Jab, Left Hook, and step back

    Ali wuda done a Terrel on him hehehe u shud see what a retirin Sanders did to him, hahahaha

    like i read here, Wlad wanted his mommy, forget it, I saw what Brewster did to him, Wlad was hangin on to the refree hahaha beggin him to shield him from the punches,

    here it is in caps; THE ONLY REASON WLAD'S CHAMPION TODAY IS BECAUSE VITALI IS HIS BROTHER
    AND OF COURSE MANNY

    we got a champ who cherry picks his opponents and who can complain, even Lewis cherry picked…

    every single of Wlads fights have come against bums who cant press home an advantage, and 95% are shorter than him so if he clinches, they're stuck, makes for an awesome record

    Sanders bucked the trend made that lil boy sob

    there's no comparison boy, Wlad's no champion material, he s gotta get down on his knees and thank his brother for makin him champ

    Lewis wuda killed him, killed him I REPEAT

    Ali, wtf r u thinkin, Wlad would be destroyed clinically in the first 4 round by a 1966 Ali, yes that same guy before the stupid US Govt banned him, take Wlad away for 3 years and lets see if he makes it back

    in 1966, when he filled out in muscle and the speeed was there that Ali, he wudn even require a phantom punch to own Wlad hehehe

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #5301 Admin (2012-11-16th)

      When you watch the slomo at the end of round #5 Wlad was hit ONCE and was superbly swerving the rest of the punches. Something that Ali didn't do in his prime let alone at 36.

      we got a champ who cherry picks his opponents and who can complain, even Lewis cherry picked…

      Wlad is one of the least cherry picking champs of all times. Wach was the highest rated+available opponent. Additionally unbeaten. No other champ had as many world championship fights against unbeatens.

      Ali, wtf r u thinkin, Wlad would be destroyed clinically in the first 4 round by a 1966 Ali

      In 1966 Ali fought the following guys:

      George Chuvalo (216 lbs, like Mormeck) (Ali couldn't KO him)
      Henry Cooper (188 lbs) (Ali got viciously floored)
      Brian London (201 lbs, 35-13, 37-20 whole career)
      Karl Mildenberger (195 lbs)
      Cleveland Williams (gunshot)

      On what fight do you base your "destruction prediction" against a 6'6" 245, 59-3 guy like Wlad?

      • Honza says:
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        [ip2username: Nady Sore]
        #5304 Honza (2012-11-19th)

        Henry Cooper (188 lbs) (Ali got viciously floored)
        That hapenned 3 years before.

      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Xupa Gyko]
        #6044 Tommo (2013-04-14th)

        Ali destroying Wlad, ANY version is pure fantasy Aaron, more likely opposite by any analysis.

        But Admin said "Wlad is one of the least cherry picking champs of all times. Wach was the highest rated+available opponent. Additionally unbeaten. No other champ had as many world championship fights against unbeatens."

        Not true. I believe Aaron is right here. Wlad and the rest of modern HW are MORE cherry picking than their olden days counterparts. Reason is their management wants to keep their fighters unbeaten or mostly unbeaten for as long as possible to promote their career. There as so many more unbeaten HW today compared to yesterday for Wlad to conquer because the contenders and champs seldom fight each other, choosing instead to save their first 20 fights for KOing bums instead of stepping it up. Now why hasn't Wlad fought out all the top 5-10 guys on all the ranking tables yet? Instead he goes for another easy kill. I suppose he thought because being out talled/reached/weight might have impressed people but a quick look at Wach dispelled any myths about him. Or maybe it's about money whatever.

        Lewis however Aaron, how can you say he cherry picked? He fought absolutely everyone bar Riddick Bowe, who without taking any sides of that conflict, Lennox did want to fight.

  • Aaron says:
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    [ip2username: Degi Jula]
    #5302 Aaron (2012-11-18th)

    hahaha jus came here after watchin the slomo u dumass..tht f*cker was gettin pasted…

    u shud see the way he cowers, hehehe fuker cant handle pressure, Ali fought 5 guys alone in 1966,

    Wlad fought 3 losers and did ur mother tell ur big dumb head, weight is nt everythin u dumass

    Wlad got punched on all sides of head and tummy with a total of 6 times after Mariusz's big right that threw him off balance

    There is no prediction even look at Wlad's style haha he covers up like there's an air raid going on when he's gettin rained on,

    Foreman wuda made this guy a paraplegic, cant handle pressure simple as that and if the best rated guy in the division cant do sh*t against this pussy, it just defeats ur stupid theory that Eras got better, sure Eras got bigger, but with f*ckin dumbasses like u, u ve got ur stupid weight argument and nothin else..

    Terrel was 6'6, he still worries at night about Ali, the moment u throw pressure on today's champ he flits aroun like the panties r on fire, a slight deviation from any good fighter like Vitali, who just gobbles up pressure..

    Get that guy a fight with Boytsov, not f*cking unknown journeymen who call themselves unbeatens after beatin has-beens, KOin McBride was Mariusz's claim to fame, he's nothin but a has been

    And ur records that u throw around only improves as fighters r replaced with bums, everythin points to that, in a fight weight counts for nothin if u dont know how to use it

    If its always the bigger fighter with the better record who wins, then why f*ckin bother with fightin even, just conclude and retire them with money dumbass

    Lewis wuda made this guy a little bich, and Ali why even drag him into this, these r pathetic times when guys like u think size is everythin and if u beat bums ur the greatest my ass

    I got one word for u, Boytsov, the day Wlad meets Boytsov in the ring and not when either of them r ready to become fathers u gotta point. DUMBASS…

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #5303 Admin (2012-11-18th)

      Terrell was 212 lbs and one of the most featherfisted guys.

      It's laughable to compare Terrell to Wlad (or to any modern heavyweight for that matter).

      The rest of your post is fantasy+hate, e.g. "Foreman wuda made this guy a paraplegic"

  • Aaron says:
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    [ip2username: Degi Suga]
    #5309 Aaron (2012-11-20th)

    haha there was a ton of other stuff in there like how Wlad ran for cover,

    and sure earlier heavweights punched powder to earn the HW belts, that Terrel earned it and stood 6'6 is immaterial cos todays Heavyweights eat spinach from eastern europe

    wtf..man..anyways its pretty clear to the world now..that u got just ur weight theory to go hide in when u ve got no real answers or any kind of analysis going on rather than parroting strange facts
    when u've got nowhere to hide or boxing record dumbass

    Eras get better my ass, there are two guys with quality, the champ has never been tested, and the challengers are bums who try to up their pay-day

    what a f*cking division..

    Not one guy with balls big enough who can fight for the game and not money

  • hernanday says:
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    [ip2username: Tove Niku]
    #5328 hernanday (2012-11-23rd)

    This is an utter joke of a website. Klitschko would have destroyed Ali yet he hold embarassing losses against 3 journeymen and was dropped 3 TIMES in 1 fight by Samuel Peter for god sake, a guy who struggled in his prime to beat an 45 year old james toney. Not to mention that Klitschko has dodged the only 2 more experienced fighters than himself in the heavy division for well over 10 years (toney and holyfield) both of whom are large cruiser weights.

    The cruelest beating Ali ever put on anyone was against Ernie Terrel. IN Theory it seems like a good idea Klitschko beat Ali, Klitschko is bigger, has a good jab, weighs more has good power. But what top 20, top 30 or top 50 opponent does Wlad have to his record. Vitali was beaten so bad by Lennox that the fight was stopped. Anyone who has watched Ali sees that the reason why a taller, longer reach guy can't beat Ali is because he is constantly moving away from you, and his hands are faster, Klitschko has never faced an opponent even half as elusive. The reason why Klitschko wouldn't land is Ali would fake in and out numerous times, and once he is able to feint you enough times that you stop throwing he unleashes about 15-20 punches on you and you can't counter because you can't see sh*t but flashes of white and red gloves from being grilled in the eye.

    You simply don't understand, weight doesn't matter much. All those guys like buster mathis who weigh 240 pounds were not an obstacle, very large guys are never the biggest hittest and neither is klitschko. So what he knockouts guys and none of those kos are against a hof, not one between over 120 fights for 2 brothers who are supposedly the best.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #5330 Admin (2012-11-23rd)

      Klitschko… ducking… Toney?

      That sums up your whole knowledge of the sport.

      Your ignorance is further emphasized by the repetition of the nonsense that "weight doesn't matter", which I specifically mention as typical for AliFants at the top of this article.

      Ali was extremely affected by weight.

      AliFants live in a dream world, where there are no weight divisions.

    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5607 Tommo (2013-03-24th)

      wtf lol Foreman was among the biggest guys and biggest hitters THEN, Wlad is among the biggest guys and biggest hitter NOW, it just makes sense. It's good you didn't just abuse the admin outright but you have to have something sensible man.

      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5610 Tommo (2013-03-24th)

        LOL boy and got to love your analysis of Ali dancing around in and out, feinting his way in for a 20 punch combo on Klitschko haha. And so elusive how he gets walloped like a rag doll so bad in every fight he has the worst case of punch drunkness ever seen now lol. You don't really believe he could do that there is some other reason to motivate this response.

        • Tommo says:
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          [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
          #5794 Tommo (2013-03-30th)

          "Klitschko's embarrassing losses". Have you forgotten Ali's embarrassing losses? Frazier, Norton, Spinks against Puritty, Sanders, Brewster? No matter which way you match these 3 up, one set of these will be pouring champagne and the other set face IMMEDIATE and BRUTAL KO, only MOMENTS after the opening bell. Yesterdays champions (in this case) would be todays tomato cans. The journeyman, borderline contender and champion here from modern times would have been top contenders and champions of yesterday. Particularly bad case for you against Klitschko.

  • hernanday says:
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    [ip2username: Tove Niku]
    #5329 hernanday (2012-11-23rd)

    As for sabedong being a bum, if klitschko fought in that era he'd a been a bum, it was far deeper than now, and he got knocked out 3 times by journeymen and the other one got beat by chris bryd and a fat old outta shape lennox lewis a glass jawed hw, who if klitschko had all that power should have been able to flatten but instead he got schooled and whupped for 6 rounds. Klitschko could never hit ali never mind beat him

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #5331 Admin (2012-11-23rd)

      You are obviously not only a hater of the Klitschkos but a hater of this and the previous era.

      Shame on you.

      That is by the way the difference between my analysis and your rant. I back up my statements with facts. The only thing you have are hate + triangulation nonsense ("Vitali couldn't KO glass-jaw-Lewis hence Ali would have beaten him").

    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5606 Tommo (2013-03-24th)

      Dude, any of those modern guys you mentioned, even the journeymen, would have just taken the belts, not even really fighting for them. Ali would not escape a KO from ANY of them he would only want to be a cruiser today, his HW status probably couldn't get from tomato can to journey man today. I don't know how you could logically reach any of your conclusions. Duke Sabedong lol jeez. How could you even compare!

      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5608 Tommo (2013-03-24th)

        For all the accusations about being a klit lover or ali hater and the like i'm beginning to understand now admin the sh*t you have to deal with ;)

  • Aaron says:
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    [ip2username: Goxe Tiku]
    #5333 Aaron (2012-11-23rd)

    see man u r facts are sh*t, cos u doctored em;

    read this carefully; Lennox was one of the best of all time, an overweight, clumsy, past the hill Lennox won the fight against the better fighter of the brothers..

    Wlad if he fot Vitali would be owned, I shudder to even think it, prime again

    Wlad's got size and about 60 fights against bums, and 3 losses to bums too,

    journeymen have wiped the floor with his face and he has crawled around for mercy in the ring

    Manny gave him a life and a career which was fadin out so bad before he could even say Jack Robinson, he owes him and his brother everything because the truth is simply, there are better fighters out there who have let him have it,

    he has had the easiest opponents of all in HW history which is disgraceful, he's a great guy an all, and i think he's great for the sport, but Hall of Fame or no Hall of Fame, you can kiss my ass

    He's not even on the top 10 list of great HWs.. why cos He's not fought anybody

    the contenders like Povetkin have been waiting but he fights others, why he's not even fot his brother who got whupped by Lennox who is the only one even worth comparin to Ali

    Boxing is not for 14 year old girls, and I have a feelin you're one and you're wet dreams are best kept between ur legs

    your knowledge about fightin is minimal, ur research full of sh*t and manipulation, ur understanding of styles ridiculous and the hate a lil 14 yr old girl could have when she knows fighters are different from poster boys from Ukraine, bitter

    you can have a discussion with ur dildo who will listen to u and who knows maybe even nod along to this crock of sh*t….but otherwise u shud just wet ur panties if they make u feel nicer

    forget anyone else, Wa is one of the luckiest fighters around cos he has only and only fought the easiest guys around to fight with, s almost laughable they gonna induct him into the Hall of fame..

    Laughable lamentable, and now as is custom, u can kiss my ass

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #5335 Admin (2012-11-24th)
      your knowledge about fightin is minimal, ur research full of sh*t and manipulation… you can have a discussion with ur dildo who will listen to u and who knows maybe even nod along to this crock of sh*t….but otherwise u shud just wet ur panties if they make u feel nicer

      Then please, enlighten us with your supreme knowledge of boxing and… dildos.

  • Aaron says:
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    [ip2username: Wylo Gezi]
    #5336 Aaron (2012-11-24th)

    Sure tell me when, my dildo is a better judge of boxin than u :) plus i dont enlighten minors..wink:)

  • Vinu says:
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    [ip2username: Nylo Lewi]
    #5341 Vinu (2012-11-28th)

    Let us analyze on what Ali's 'boxing' fame is built . 1) the destruction of Liston who was largely considered to be invincible. 2) The resilience shown against Foreman and the eventual victory.

    Now, if anyone can analyze how Wlad would have fared against these two powerhouses had they fought, it would give a fair idea how he might do against Clay / Ali. Ali was always a smart fighter where as we can see that Wlad is an intelligent fighter. I do not hazard a guess here.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #5342 Admin (2012-11-29th)

      Yes, Liston, Foreman, the Frazier trilogy and Ali's foulmouth are the main basis for Ali's fame.

      However, what you call "destruction" is actually a ruptured shoulder, that was forbidden to heal as Sonny applied for a postponement but was denied.

      The win against George Foreman is basically _THE_ reason why Ali is thought of as "out of the world".
      Everyone was expecting Foreman to win yet Ali won and that's why this win confuses fans and experts to this very day, since it leads to conclusions like "modern boxers should box like Ali" and "Ali could win against the Klitschkos" and other nonsense.

      This fight had not only absolutely bizarre circumstances (in the jungle during the rain season, Ali's trainer manipulating the ropes, Foreman kidnapped, death threats, Foreman claims he has been drugged), but had also amateurish predictions ("Foreman will surely win"), which are the basis for this overhyping.

      These predictions are equally ridiculous once you objectively check the parameters and ignore the hype that surrounded Foreman:

      Before the Foreman-Ali clash Foreman had 40 fights (that's a lot). However when you analyze how he faired the picture becomes much more clear:

      * The most experienced fighter Foreman faced (Peralta x2) he couldn't KO (dec 10) or KOed late (KO10).
      * He also couldn't KO experienced Levi Forte and experienced Roberto Davila.
      * The median KO victim of Foreman up to the Ali fight was 205lbs (= far lower than Ali)
      * Of the 37 KOvictims 32 were bums
      * The nonbums were Chuvalo (6'0", 15 losses on his record at bout, 11 years older), Boone Kirkman (6'1", 203 lbs), Peralta (see above, 6'0", 14 years older), Joe Frazier (5'11'), Ken Norton (coming off a loss).

      Now however impressive a win over these guys may be, these guys are not comparable to Ali.

      * Foreman at bout had 4 (FOUR) wins over non-bums 200×2, Ali had 14 (FOURTEEN!).
      * Ali at that moment in his career had boxed a total of 352 rounds (including 20x for 8+ rounds)
      * while Foreman had only boxed 105 rounds (including 4x for 8+ rounds).
      * Foreman's outweighed most of his opponents by a median 12.5 lbs, whereas he outweighed Ali only by 3.5 lbs.

      In other words: The stats that I compile _DO_ have a meaning. You can see that victory over Foreman is far less astounding than it might seem.
      Even the fact that Ali won by KO is not too mind-blowing since Foreman's chin is a question mark and the circumstances were bizarre (rain forest).

      • Honza says:
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        [ip2username: Zura Pyso]
        #5366 Honza (2012-12-03rd)

        George Foreman was fenomenal boxer. His record speaks for himself: 76 wins 5 losses, two times heavyweight champion, oldest heavyweight champion in history and also olympic winner. Out of 81 fights only one loss via ko. Stop underrating old boxers please. And about his chin: he was able to take best punches from guys like Ken Norton, Gerry Cooney and also Tommy Morrison (who ran from George whole match). So I think that his chin was very good.

        • Tommo says:
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          [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
          #5609 Tommo (2013-03-24th)

          I think that maybe the reason Tommy was more cautious than usual with Foreman had a lot to do with the state of his own chin haha :) I believe he may have hit even harder than Foreman but taking a like shot was not something he did too well lol

        • Aaron says:
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          [ip2username: Lone Dinu]
          #5742 Aaron (2013-03-28th)

          also Foreman took nukes on his face n chin from a bomber called Ronnie lyle..and then made him eat rubber…both were legends who lost to Ali and held him in the highest regard…Fags these days who play on their ps2 belive stats r everythin and Ali wud do sh*t…the real thing is slightly different

          • Tommo says:
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            [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
            #5791 Tommo (2013-03-30th)

            Foreman/Lyle was good fight, Lyle was good opponent for Foreman and was one of the best HW of the 70's. But I don't think he'd make too much impact now. He and Ali to be fair to them for you Aaron, I could imagine knocking at the gate but getting denied entry. They would be good journeymen, not even borderline contenders. If you can name someone not necessary good, just decent, from the modern era you think they could defeat feel free to put it up? I can't think of any they would have a clear advantage over.

  • aaron says:
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    [ip2username: Lemi Gura]
    #5345 aaron (2012-11-30th)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaZGQK3zVxQ

    ahahahahahahaha

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Zura Pyso]
    #5365 Honza (2012-12-03rd)

    the circumstances were bizarre (rain forest).
    Old title bouts took place all over the world. Fights were in Tokyo, Manila, Karakaz, Kingston and Zaire etc.. What is wrong with that? Now 90% of world championship bouts take place in Germany.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Zura Pyso]
    #5367 Honza (2012-12-03rd)

    And one last think. Wlad great defense how you like to mention all the time works against smaller boxer. Not against boxers his size. Just watch his matches with Thompson and Wach. What is greatest weapon of Wlad is punching power/punching speed combination. Those two things with solid chin make him best of his generation.

    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Xupa Gyko]
      #6029 Tommo (2013-04-13th)

      Agreed, his height/reach plus solid defense and evasion techniques frustrate any of his smaller opponents. But what sets him apart from fighters his own size is superior conditioning of course and most importantly, punch power and punch speed. Very good overall package. Good enough at all the above that inside game not really required.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Pyvo Redi]
    #5464 Honza (2013-01-03rd)

    Muhammad Ali was 218 lbs when he faced Liston. That is heavyweight even today.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Pyvo Redi]
    #5468 Honza (2013-01-03rd)

    In the fight with Vitali Klitschko, at the end of the fourth round I told Lennox, 'Lennox, you're losing the heavyweight championship of the world. You're used to being the tall fighter and pulling back and being out of range, but this guy is taller than you'. And Vitali was fighting like a man obsessed that night. So Lennox looked at me and I said to him, 'We got to go to the streets. You got to go out and change your style, and when you jab don't just jab — push your jab all the way through where you can push him off balance', because I saw that Vitali crosses his legs a lot when he punches, and he would be out of balance. I said, 'When you get inside throw punches. If you miss him with a hook, bang him with your shoulders'. When he got inside there was a little trick I showed him how to slowly get your right hand down, real slow and quietly, and then rip an uppercut!

    With everything I told him to do, Lennox looks at me, goes out there, and wins the fifth round big time. And then he wins the sixth round big time, and when he came back at the end of the sixth round he looked at me and he said, 'I got him now!'

    Damn Manny Steward was great trainer. :-)

  • Aaron says:
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    [ip2username: Vaky Vobe]
    #5481 Aaron (2013-01-22nd)

    http://rt.com/sport/boxing/wach-klitschko-doping-boxing-438/

    Last HW contender for wladimir…

  • Box Fan says:
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    [ip2username: Byzo Vesi]
    #5489 Box Fan (2013-01-28th)

    Box Experts and Fan´s dont say that Muhammad Ali have no chance.
    Most People said Klitschko have no chance.

    Ring Magazine (2012) said 8 of 10 Heavyweight Legends vs Wladimir Klitschko – Sonny Liston , George Foreman , Joe Frazier , Muhammad Ali , Larry Holmes , Lennox Lewis ,
    Joe Louis and Mike Tyson would Win

    Floyd Patterson and Rocky Marciano would Lost.

    So now you want to tell us that the people who have professional boxing to have day after day, less foreboding than you?

    Bye the Way i think a Fight Sonny Liston/Foreman vs Klitschko would be dangerous for Klitschko.

    I mean it would be dangerous for his life.

    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5750 Tommo (2013-03-29th)

      Of all those fighters, Lennox would be unltimate competition, Mike and maybe Larry would be competitive. You could not say that any of those 3 could BEAT Wldimir though. George would have a punchers chance. And the remaining 4, Liston, Louis, Ali and Frazier, all would be KO'd… VICIOUSLY KO'd. Ring Magazine is absolute nonsense, isn't it written in America? On what basis do they make their predictions? You can obviously see how ridiculous that assessment is. An amateur boxer could defeat Frazier today. How could he beat the HW champion of the world.

      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5769 Tommo (2013-03-29th)

        It is a common belief in Australia that Americans are ridiculously stupid and follow blindly compared to our common European ancestors. Don't let us down and be an American sheep ;) think for yourself lol

  • Anthony says:
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    [ip2username: Veni Puna]
    #5520 Anthony (2013-02-23rd)

    Very interesting topic you got there. There was a 40 pounds lighter difference between the heavyweight then and the heavyweight now. However there was no doubt about the performance of Muhammad Ali during these times that was why he was called "The Greatest".

    http://www.muhammad-ali.co.uk

    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5795 Tommo (2013-03-30th)

      Wrong. The whole idea of Muhammad being the greatest AT ALL is based ABSOLUTELY on just one fight. Rumble in the Jungle was even more important for Ali than he ever could have imagined. If George had won ppl would be telling the story of the greatest HW champion of all time what no HW today or since could have ever beaten and his name would have been George, Ali would be considered a 2nd tier champion. Unlike Ali, had George won, he would be considered a dominant champion like Wlad and Lennox clearing out entire division. He did not struggle like Clay.

  • josip says:
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    [ip2username: Teti Muga]
    #5545 josip (2013-03-12th)

    i read all your article, and i agree on almost every fact you put on there. just one thing, todays heawyweight is above 92 kg (200 lbs), you have david haye who is around 95 kg (210 lbs), but nevertheless he still has twice ali's speed and power. the only thing that makes ali so great is american brainwashing media and american brainwashable fans, without media he would be no one, i mean, they even make justin bieber look good. american media launches 70' era in the sky but all of them would be today just a b-class cruiser/lightweights. you still did not mention all of klitchos skills, vitalis mastermindness, punch activity and resourcefullness and ability to be very hard to catch clean, and for both brothers, that extreme accurancy that would simply demolish ali. truth is that ali cant hurt vitali, maybe, but just maybe if he goes bone to bone in first round he may hurt wladimir but that is 1 in 100 fights, but against vitali he has no real chance. i just wish that there is no american fans, they allreday destroyed mma, and they are trying to do same with boxing, we are lucky that boxing has moved to germany where its safe, but still not safe from american media… they cant get over that boxing has become more global and there is much more slavic boxers who are phisycly advanced and will from now on always be champions. if vitali or wlad were from usa and black, they would be best boxers of all time by us media…

  • ian says:
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    [ip2username: Xeni Suda]
    #5586 ian (2013-03-22nd)

    f*ck THESE YANKS ARE SO DUMB, ALI THE GREATEST HEAVYWEIGHT EVER , GIMME A BREAK, OR THE 70s WERE THE GOLDEN ERA OF HEAVYWEIGHT BOXING , JA OK AND I CAN FLY AND MAKE MONEY WITH MY BUTT.
    THE HEAVYWEIGHT SCENE BACK THEN WAS LIMITED TO ONE COUNTRY , THE US, NOW ITS GLOBAL, PLUS THE EASTERN BLOC FIGHTERS WERE NOT COMPETING INTERNATIONALLY BACK THEN , NOW THEY ARE , WHICH IS WHY THEY ARE THE BEST AND THEY WOULDVE BEEN THE BEST BACK THEN TOO BY A COUNTRY MILE.

    IT IS VERY DISRESPECTFUL TO CLAIM ALI OR FOREMAN WOULD BEAT A KLITSCHKO , THESE GUYS ARE THE BEST THE WORLD HAS EVER SEEN .
    THIS AUTHOR HAS CLEARLY DONE HIS HOMEWORK, TO MENTION ALI AND FRASER IN THE SAME SENTENCE AS A KLITSCHKO IS AN INSULT TO THE KLITS.
    THE GREAT AMERICAN HYPE PROPANGANDA MACHINE, WHAT A f*ckING JOKE, MAKES ME SICK.

  • ian says:
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    [ip2username: Xeni Suda]
    #5587 ian (2013-03-22nd)

    ALI WOULD NOT BEAT CHRIS BYRD OR HAYE OR PRICE OR FURY LET ALONE A KLITSCHKO.

    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5768 Tommo (2013-03-29th)

      Agreed :) Price and Fury would stop him at the gate. He wouldn't get/wouldn't have got to fight Haye or Byrd. He would remain a journeyman or fight at cruiser. Toughest pill for a nostalgist to swallow. I loved the Foreman/Ali documentary and feel he transformed boxing (Ali). That event and his out of ring performance surrounding it was the absolute pinnacle of boxing from a cultural point of view (atleast that's how the WEST perceived it. Soviets would have seen it totally different). That was Ali's legacy for me and what was great about the golden age. But 1/ time moves on and 2/ a closer analysis of his performance reveals he was not the GOAT. He was heavily challenged even in his own era and 3/ With the opening up of the East, boxing is now a globally competitive sport.

  • Tommo says:
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    [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
    #5600 Tommo (2013-03-24th)

    Incredible how many people really believe in him isn't it. I don't hate Ali or love Wladimir, just call it how it is. LOOK at them. One is a gigantic elite athlete who has mastered boxing and dominated the era. The other is a soft bodied cruiserweight who only defeated one good opponent and would be a tomato can at heavyweight today. I am open to a serious argument that Lennox or Tyson or Riddick could give Wladimir problems, he is just human as well. But there isn't enough heroin in the world to dope the Ukranian fighter up enough to allow that limp wristed kid to knock him down. Article should not have been necessary but apparently it was!

    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5604 Tommo (2013-03-24th)

      One thing admin, so far your blog has featured wlad vs xxx articles against opponents he could obviously defeat. The reason it's so easy to crush these guys on this blog defending them is because they're so weak by comparison that the stats are overwhelming. However the closer we come to the present days fighters the more blurred the stats are and controversial will be the counter arguments. You've done nearly 10 articles on Ali now, he's done lol :) hopefully you could invest some time on other fighters. Look forward to it in the future!! Still, great article!! :)

      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5645 Tommo (2013-03-25th)

        Or for nostalgic readers maybe they would like to see more realistic match up like prime for prime Joe Louis/Muhammad Ali/Rocky Marciano match ups (i.e. the best of the heavies when they were still cruisers type thing).

  • Thinker says:
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    [ip2username: Ruta Lyko]
    #5683 Thinker (2013-03-26th)

    This article is, of course, absolutely ridiculous. I'll prove to you that in a purely scientific and analytical. David Haye which is slower, has a smaller arsenal of punches, strikes, footwork is worse, there is a natural heavy (Ali, of course, it always was) jab is worse, less creativity, much less the nature of the master, winner of Klitschko fight moved very uniform, where if you count the blows hit accurately, safely Haye won more rounds than the judges pointed out. Now imagine what would make Muhammad Ali-a man of great charisma, personality type very clear winner, boss. Ali was smarter than Haye'a, had better technique, was faster, had larger arsenal of moves, a lot more creative, work much better legs, better timing, great dodge, rhythm, capabilities, much better resistance to blows, 100 times stronger the boss , a master of human nature that he must govern. Even Holmes said: Ali is a great guy, and everything is ok in touch with him as long as you are LONG BOTTOM, and he at the top. It was such a character. Quite different from Haye'a. Look at the Ali fight with weighing well over 220 lbs and measuring about 195 cm Joe Bugner, who had up to that speed. I am not saying that is an exact copy Bugner Klitschko, of course not, but he had what could most threaten Ali in the fight against Klitschko-ie height, reach, ask a lot of simple, jabów well and quite a speed. Despite this, Ali completely neutralized it-especially evident in their first fight. When there's someone who watched the fight with Klitschko Haye'a and still do not see the force of the blow apart Ali has not played a role in this fight, every other thing is that Haye had BETTER what you already mentioned, I have to say that this is idiot. You just can not be otherwise.

    Until these texts Marciano, Joe Louis, they were not real heavy, man … David Haye-210 lbs, which is a few pounds more than Joe Louis knocks out all but Klitschko today, Marco Huck, weighing 200 lbs went to hard and came close to knocking out Povetkin-and you talking about me that Louis and Marciano is a cruiser and do nothing in today's hard?! Man, your IQ must be outrageously low. Can not you see that the old ci??cy as Ali, Norton, Foreman, Frazier they were ATHLETES. These were people who had a small percentage of body fat, they had MUSCLES, they were fast, strong, ?WAWI. Who are you comparing me here.

    I also read another article where talking about that Foreman is worse hit by the strength of what you're trying to prove Klitschko statistics. But you lied in these statistics. Statistics are such-Foreman, until the end of the first career until 1977 had 47 fights and as much as 43 FIGHT WON by knockout, giving a rate of 91.49% knockouts. Your Klitschko on the other hand has 62 fights and 50 wins by KO JUST giving him 80.64%. Do not compare Foreman when he was over 40 years because it's pure stupidity on your part. The Brewster has more or less similar conditions of growth and resistance at Joe Frazier. Klitschko pestering him with what one Walk. lost. Now imagine what would Foreman of Brewster. Yes, the same Foreman who badly beat Frazier. DO NOT compare the old fat-free Foreman, with a ring assassin and Hercules which Foreman was in the 70s I bet any money that Wladimir Klitschko wypunktowa?by Ali. The more that Wladimir has a weak psyche Haye to fight Klitschko after a few rounds he lost to, it did not deal, not in control of the fight. Ali wypunktowa?by Klitschko, and bludgeoned him to Foreman. Only Vitali Klitschko would have a chance to beat Ali.

  • thinker says:
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    [ip2username: Ruta Lyko]
    #5719 thinker (2013-03-27th)

    Ali fought with guests like Terrell 6'6 ", Bugner 6'5" (you can see that he was taller than 6'4", like tell that the sources) – everyone of them had a rate of growth and quick hands exactly the same as Wladimir Klitschko, even if not faster. Ali easily avoid their blows and outboxed them. David Haye who is the same height, the same weight as Ali, he avoided Klitschko punches easily and without problems. fought at ease and after the fight was barely a scratch, nothing more I could not see on his face. Moreover, in this fight Haye certainly won more rounds than the judges pointed out, Wladimir in this fight was lost as a child, he could not hit Haye, after 3-4 rounds on his face could be seen Wladimir scare and confusion. Overall, the Haye fight was all like a good sparring-Klitschko didn't dominated the fight and could not hurt Haye. Now watch the fight Terrell Ali and Bugner Ali (mainly the first) take into account the facts, which I wrote about the fight Haye with Klitschko and imagine what would happen if, instead of Haye in this fight came faster, with much better footwork, dodging the better, with much better technique, with a much larger arsenal of moves, with much greater creativity, intelligence, rings, and especially all the personality WINNERS, BOSS, the man who ALWAYS has to rule, must be the best-Muhammad Ali. What do you see? I 'll tell you what sees every person with an IQ higher than the chimpanzee. He sees Ali completely dominates Klitschko by his speed, cunning, mobility, great footwork, excellent resistance to blows, endurance, an arsenal of punches, idea. He sees this as Ali destroid MENTALLY WEAK Wladimir Klitschko. This is obvious to everyone who has an IQ higher than a chimpanzee. Your argument, therefore, is obviously extremely stupid.

    Besides, I saw your other article which once again lied to the people. You have entered the statistics to confirm that Foreman had less punching power than Klitschko. Well, I'll show you how much you lied to readers: Foreman to 1977, where he interrupted his career, he fought 47 fights, of which 43 ended by knockout, giving him 91.49% in terms of percentage of knockouts. Wladimir Klitschko is now 62 fight with 50 wins by KO which gives it a 80.65% interest knockouts. SO WHY You lie people in LIVE EYES?.

    One more thing: to all those who are talking nonsense, that Louis and Marciano is a cruiser who would give the council today. 210 lbs Haye knocked out all heavyweights except Wladimir Klitschko apart. He was close to knocked down 320 lbs Valuev. 200 lbs Huck beat and almost knocked out Povetkin. So if you think 200-205 lbs (Louis weighed as much against heavier opponents) Joe Louis today would not have coped in the heavyweight division, it's a sure sign that you are mentally retarded.

    To the author: Do not delete my posts, this time as you did before: so much afraid of the facts and specific analysis showing how stupid is your article?

    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5751 Tommo (2013-03-29th)

      Both your posts were a blatant waste of space and only served to show how ridiculous your assessment is. You'll be lucky to get a breakdown reply because there are so many senseless things you said, so far off the mark to all be addressed. One thing should be said because you aren't the first to bring it up. Former cruisers CAN move up to HW and be successful and obviously are. The author likes to point out that they are usually more fetherfisted than genuine heavies which is also true but nonetheless they can be very successful and even champions (Holy etc.) Now Joe Louis for example was a very good boxer and tipped over the HW limit as well. He WAS a great athlete in his day, he had to be, but look at him, look at Davd Haye and tell me who do you think is the better athlete. Haye is f*ckin ripped! Those old boxers you mentioned from Louis to Ali were NOT "athletic" as we would see them today. Myself.. "I" am a better conditioned athlete than they were. If Joe Louis had access to modern diet and training and could spar/compete with modern fighters then he would probably have developed into a modern contender like David Haye as well. But Joe Louis as he WAS, back then, would not be the brown bomber. He would be bombed out!

      As for the rest, Haye and Klitschko was even fight fact. Both are faster than the HW version of Ali and cruiser Haye faster than cruiser Ali also fact. Both would "beat" Ali to put it mildly. The fighters you used to defend Ali would not be ALLOWED as sparring partners for either Haye or Klitschko by either of their trainers because they wouldn't want their fighters wasting their time with such inferior opponents.

      SHAME ON YOU POLAND! Think thinker =P

      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5752 Tommo (2013-03-29th)

        LOL Ali dodging punches haha what a laugh!! lol

        • Tommo says:
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          [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
          #5753 Tommo (2013-03-29th)

          Ok I wont put it mildly just so you understand me properly. Klitschko or Haye, either one. Would punch Ali's f*ckin lights out. And Louis' and Liston's and Frazier's, and Marciano's. Punch their heads in so bad they'll never want to be called HW again!

  • Aaron says:
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    [ip2username: Lone Dinu]
    #5741 Aaron (2013-03-28th)

    Man i took a break from reading these articles hahaha, there r so many dumbf*cks out there omparin a champ from the yesteryears to a guy who has quite simply been pardoned by providence to be champ..

    Simple point Wlad has'nt fought the best out there

    Ali did and over generations…i think that alone shows who has more balls…

    Had Wlad fought Vitali, he quite simply wuda ended up with Ali's parkinsons during the fight,

    Second…why do i even bother, show me one guy today other than the Klits, who's got the power of Foreman, or the Jab of Larry, I wanna see the guy who commented Haye's got twice the speed of Ali hahaha, where du get these guys from, Haye does'nt even have a strategy except swing wildy and lose, get my money n leave… and this guy is ranked No. 3 in the world…what a f*ckin joke…

    Alex Povetkin, Fury will be in their seventies when they fight WLad, been waiting for a while now for that….

    im typin this with my left hand cos thats how much attention it needs…bunch of dumbf*cks…

    • Tommo says:
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      #5760 Tommo (2013-03-29th)

      Was there a point in there somewhere that required any serious reflection? Your statements are about as feasible as your Russian counterparts "Ali is overrated featherfisted punch bag" lol. Except atleast the Russian's statement was backed up by stats in some context. Foreman and Larry could have been in the mix today sure. Doubt they would have made it past the gate.

      • Tommo says:
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        #5761 Tommo (2013-03-29th)

        You're an American right. Think baseball and grid iron players from 40 years ago or more. There records were impressive, they were great, they ARE great and deserve respect, admiration and all that. But they would not make the team today. That is easy for you to swallow. But for some reason it is harder to swallow that if a HW boxing champ met their contemporary's today.. They would simply get knocked out. Just accept it. I could argue all day how the Roman Empire was greater than the American one today. But if Rome fought the US they would be nuked. Obviously Aaron!

        • Aaron says:
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          #5826 Aaron (2013-03-31st)

          tru tru..but that was decided, it for one is pointless and intellectually lost to compare from 2 different eras…but if we teleported Ali thru time or Wlad back in it…the results d be too interestin to miss, obviously havin said that, readin this sad article does'nt for once do decent justice to taht match-up boxing's beyond weight, sure weight counts, but if it was sacrosanct, then there's enough exceptions to point otherwise

          Also, Foreman and Larry wudn a made it past the gates eh…hehehe im not gonna comment on that…:P

          • Tommo says:
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            #5831 Tommo (2013-03-31st)

            By that I mean I don't think they would make a title shot with a top tier champion because they would be stopped earlier than that but I think in revisionism of that statement I will have to eat my words and revise that conclusion because I have just taken a look at one of Wlads recent fights which he dominated in expected fashion, opponent physically looks modern although cruisery, but when checking his record appears he walked through an open gate to fight Wlad when I would have liked to see Wlad make more competitive fight. I guess I should say on the whole they would be competitive but not top competitors like my toplist I have scripted elsewhere because it's possible to engineer to a title shot without being super great, relatively speaking in modern times. Maybe because there is more belts.

            Yes Aaron comparison trans-era thing is not the only theme this blog should feature thank you. lol

  • thinker says:
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    [ip2username: Ruta Lyko]
    #5815 thinker (2013-03-31st)

    Tommo:
    Louis had great body building. You use all the time epithets, without any argument. Did Foreman need any supplements to beat knock out most of his oponnents in 80's and 90's, in the age of 45 years? Of course not. Foreman fought in years, yet 60, his style has not change. Joe Louis fought just 30 years before Foreman. What you are talking about is a total nonsense. Muhammad Ali hits MUCH MORE punches than Haye'a per round, had a much better technique, in these times the boxers fought 15 rounds. They were much better ATHLETES, not fat, he's not what today's fat pancakes as Povetkin, Arreola, Chisora??, Fury, etc. Tell me, do you really has that low IQ, that you think that these few decades ago, people have five arms, 8 legs and some of the people were Neanderthals? Man, for God's sake, Foreman of the 70 returned to the 90 being grandfather and poured all the boys to beat, Foreman proved unequivocally that the difference between the years 70 and today doesn't exist. You really believe that this cake as Povetkin who weighs 235 lbs, of which a large part of these lbs is a fat, would beat athletes such as Holmes, for example? OMG man, Holmes fought in the 70's and later fought in the 80's and 90's with such "modern" fighters like Ray Mercer-and beat them already being a grandfather, and you talking to me, that some losers like Povetkin or another Fury would be too much for that fighters like Holmes, Norton, Frazier, Shavers, Ali? Hahahaha, so that means, that Ray Mercer would not have a chance with these fat-losers-Povetkin-Fury-Arreola-copy too, hahaha.
    Haye and Klitschko faster from ALI? Hahahahaha, are you kid, or retard, tell me?? How old are you? 12? 45-year-old Holmes beat Mercer as he wanted, Foreman beat 90's fighters, and knocked out them as he wanted, but judging from what you wrote, Mercer and Holyfield could not even be sparingpartnerami Haye and Klitschko . Hahahhahaha what an IQ-chimpanzee

    These Klitschko-fans, are totally ignorants.

    • Tommo says:
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      #5819 Tommo (2013-03-31st)

      So why is it I can watch a modern match, pull up a YouTube clip of an Ali or Louis fight and "despite" looking past what I consider not being a serious HW figure I still don't see quite the same level of boxing. Especially Muhammad. Arbitrarily look at a fight- hands down by side, hit in face, clinch, run away. One of those "fat slobs" as they've been labelled would not let him get away with that.

      I have never claimed any 90's fighter would not be competitive today and have specifically stated that Holmes who was not that ancient and especially Foreman who was from golden era transgressed to the 90's well. You're trying to say that because I said Terrell and OTHER golden era champs opponents couldn't be sparring partners for todays champs, not foreman or holmes who def a modern heavy that mercer or moorer etc couldn't be spar partner either, that's severl steps from what I implied. The thing that made Foreman able to transgress from his era and threatening even into advanced age was his size, power and chin, Muhammad could NOT do that with his attributes and to be fair, Moorer was winning that fight, Foreman won by big hit of course. His style changed immensely. Old George was a measured bomber, young one was straight out of the box trying to knock his opponent out, that's why he lost to muhammad. Louis could have transgressed eras in his prime too but I see nothing in his opponents or his body to suggest he could make it today, I mean Schmelling come on! 70's yes, now no.

      Are you suggesting Joe Louis could defeat cake boy Alexander Povetkin h2h p4p? Based on Louis def such intimidating fighters as Schmelling or acro oafs like did? You KNOW he could not. Still thinking of that 20 hit combo Muhammad would put on Haye or Klitschko lol since they ARE fast.

      I believe it's rather incredible that because there are some modern boxers at HW that keep a few tucked away lbs around an otherwise powerful physique that they would be too slow to catch, too puffed to keep up with an ancient fighter where as pot bellied Frazier and ham boy were apparently so could they didn't have to worry about conditioning. Modern gen=WAY underrated.

      • Tommo says:
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        #5820 Tommo (2013-03-31st)

        some text deleted accidentally- 20 hit combo put on haye or klitschko. The reason they missed so many punches in their fights since they are fast. They try to "avoid" getting hit by punches, apparently an appreciated skill today but not highly regarded in Ali's day.

        • Tommo says:
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          #5821 Tommo (2013-03-31st)

          Ali is not the only one. Chuvalo- punch bag. No disrespect to past fighter, Chuvalo was tough in day. See if that head could withstand a series of pummelling battles like it did in the 70's but instead of his opponents replace them with Sam Peter, Chris Arreola and the like? Get the picture. I call them tomato can "today" only to describe what their head would actually look like.

          • Tommo says:
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            #5822 Tommo (2013-03-31st)

            Sorry for broken reply but let's take an example of old Foreman vs Tommy. Tommy fought measured because of Foremans known power as he did when he was not confident of a KO and because of suspect chin. If prime Foreman tried to rush Tommy like he did to opponents back in the 70's I judge Tommy whom I regard as having more skill, speed and power than prime Foreman would have caught him and stopped George. Morrisons chin would also be risk granted but as I have stated elsewhere regarding Foreman's push punches, the dukes chin could have held up better in the event it got tagged flush by one of those uncoordinated punches than expected here. So in some ways old George was "better" suited for good opposition.

  • Aaron says:
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    [ip2username: Piwu Rany]
    #5827 Aaron (2013-03-31st)

    formean is a specimen of incredible human strength, once he grew older, he grew smarter, but he could if his opponents wanted get into a slug fest, he beat Cooney's mama into him

    They way i see it the guy that cud go toe to toe with anybody from any era in HW and hold his own was Lennox, even Foreman said he's at the top of his heap

    Wlad fightin Lennox before manny hahaha m chokin, after Manny, it'd be like a chequered tribute to Manny :mrgreen:

    both of em ar awesome fighters but in truth only one of em is proven and thats Lennoz

    • Tommo says:
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      #5833 Tommo (2013-03-31st)

      In their primes the differences between both Klitschko's and Lennox would be too hard to settle with anything except h2h prime4prime battle. You say Lennox so let's take Vitali Lennox because it actually happened. The argument is inconclusive. Lennox officially won, but on a cut. I watched the fight, Vitali was winning and would have won had it continued imo. Then you could say Lennox was a bit past it and I could say Vitali was still a bit green. In any event I believe it could go either way on a given day. If Bowe would have taken Lennox fight I reckon he too would have earned this distinction with the other 3 as being in a top tier tie. I mean what other HW of yesteryear apart from some other smaller but very tough fighters (Evander/prime Tyson etc.) could seriously threaten Bowe? Not anybody pre 1980 surely. But that is only my opinion biased against earlier fighters, I understand that that is not universally shared and can't prove that without inventing a time machine.

      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5834 Tommo (2013-03-31st)

        Yes Foremans punch and durability were mainstays of his success agreed. Even if you agree he is as powerful as the others he is not as skilled though, old or prime. Like I say Ali's style would be exposed today and I think prime Georges would have knocked out several opponents but been like exposed against some bigger top opposition or against smaller but very tough ones like Holy/prime Mike.

        • Honza says:
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          [ip2username: Gajy Xode]
          #5863 Honza (2013-04-01st)

          Lennox officially won, but on a cut. I watched the fight, Vitali was winning and would have won had it continued imo.

          I do not know but it looked like Lewis was geting better in that fight. He almost koed him in six. Trust me that Vitali really looked like he is gonna go down. Manny Steward said that best: "That match had no ending. It was almost like watching a movie and not been able to watch the climax". I personally think that Lewis would win anyway.

          • Tommo says:
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            #5866 Tommo (2013-04-01st)

            Yes he definitely could. I seen it Vitali out-punching him more consistent. Of course once Vitali was hurt that may have changed. I still think Vitali would have held in there though.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Gajy Xode]
    #5865 Honza (2013-04-01st)

    I could say Vitali was still a bit green.

    I have never seen Vitali better fighting (except maybe against Corrie Sanders). Do not forget that Vitali was his seven 7 years in pro boxing. And the way he boxed, you can tell how hungry he was. Lennox knew that he can not out jabbed him when Vitali is taller. Lewis had listen to Manny advise and went into inside game (something I would not expecting from Lewis) and started to punish Vitali. Just comprare their punches. Lewis hit clerly much less than Vitali but when he hit him he almost koed him. This is what Vitali said after he get tagged by uppercat in six: "I felt like I am gonna be lifted from a floor but I wanted so bad not being koed…". You can see with your own eyes that after that shot Vitali was mostly clinching. I do not want to take anything from Vitali but I also feel like he was a little bit worried about Hasim Rahman. My explanation is simple: Rahman droped Lewis and Sanders with one punch. Something Vitali could only dreamed of. What do you think Tommo? :)

    • Tommo says:
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      #5867 Tommo (2013-04-01st)

      Well Vitali didn't have the punch of Rahman or Lewis if that's what you mean. But I can't say I seen him in serious trouble of KO in this fight. I seen him involved in lots of clinches throughout whole fight. I do think had he been allowed to continue he could have survived and thieved it on points even if he was hurt.

      I did not know Vitali had already been fighting pro for so long. I thought he was pretty much unknown until Lennox. Thought I heard Lennox had fight made with someone else that pulled out and Vitali was a stand in?

      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5868 Tommo (2013-04-01st)

        I see he had already been in with some mention-worthy contenders by this stage. I always thought his loss to Byrd was later in career.

        • Honza says:
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          [ip2username: Gajy Xode]
          #5869 Honza (2013-04-01st)

          No he lost to Byrd in 2000 or 2001.
          Thought I heard Lennox had fight made with someone else that pulled out and Vitali was a stand in?
          That is true and I think Lennox was not prepared 100%.

          • Honza says:
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            [ip2username: Gajy Xode]
            #5870 Honza (2013-04-01st)

            Both Klitschkos started in 1996 and fight with Lennox was in 2003. Vitali was well prepared for Lewis also because of movie Ocean eleven. Wlad and Lewis had fictive fight in that movie and they get to know each other. Wlad was able to get used to Lewis style and they then trained with Vitali. Alos it was Lennox Lewis who advised Corrie Sanders about how to beat Wlad. :)

            • Tommo says:
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              #5871 Tommo (2013-04-01st)

              Cheeky business lol :) so by their encounter in movie, Wlad helps his brother but in the future comes back to bite him when Lewis helps Corrie lol That's hard to be sure of but not surprising either. Touche! :)

              Yes Lennox weighed in a bit rounder than usual. I thought Lewis got tagged hard a couple of times in early rounds that hurt him but with the state of his eye it was going to be increasingly difficult had the fight continued for Vitali. Vitali said his strategy was to try stop him within next couple of rounds and that he was healthy and didn't know why doctor stopped fight. But Lennox also made statement thinking he would have had him.

              • Tommo says:
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                [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
                #5872 Tommo (2013-04-01st)

                He has a very strange style Vitali. Must be awkward to jab with lead hand held so low. I can see admins point though, that style is only plausible for someone with height advantage.

                • Honza says:
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                  [ip2username: Gajy Xode]
                  #5873 Honza (2013-04-01st)

                  Vitali said his strategy was to try stop him within next couple of rounds…
                  Yes and that is what Vitali is saying all the time. Even Manny said that he felt like Lewis was about to win anyway. Sorry but they were both very exosted and I do not see Vitali stoping Lewis if he could not do it before. Lewis was tagged in the second round. Vitali was tagged in the sixth round. It was even fight and it was unsettle for both, but it is Vitali who can not still accept the defeat and that is what I do not like about him. He is as cocky as Lewis was. He once proclaimed that he was never beaten. He likes to erase both loses.
                  Vitali hero talk after he lost is similiar to his exxagerating of Sanders power (you remember how he said that Sanders was hardest hitter he ever faced just like Rahman stated). I only hope that prime Riddick would beat both those arrogats giants. :)

                • Tommo says:
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                  #5887 Tommo (2013-04-02nd)

                  Well I certainly harbour no special feelings toward Vitali. Maybe they should have rematched. Aswin may have been right, Lennox had nothing left to prove and it was a smart decision to retire on top with his head intact unlike some other great boxers. But I would prefer to see clear succession to the throne. Since Lennox retired, the belts were fragmented and now a decade on it is all but unified.

                  I would also like to have seen Riddick beat them. Before 1st meet with Evander the commentary were saying how it was hard to decide who to cheer for because both guys gave a lot of respect to the reporters and in interviews they praised the other fighters all the time. Lewis and the Klitschko's could learn a trick from their book, they may have the best performance but a little P-R skill might possibly win more fans lol.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Xisu Napy]
    #5895 Honza (2013-04-03rd)

    I can not agree more. He was for me the last undisputed champion. I do not want to take credit from Klitschkos but they can not be called undisputed champions when they clearly stated that their goal is to unifie all major titles for themself. Imagine if Evander Holyfield vs. Lennox lewis would never hapened. You think fans would be satisfied? Of course not. There should be one undisputed champion. Not two. But probalby Vitali is going to retire soon and then Wlad will finally become undisputed heavyweight.

    • Tommo says:
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      #5899 Tommo (2013-04-03rd)

      Don't get me wrong Honza, since Vitali will likely retire soon and Wladimir has already beat the sh*t out of most of the division and a lot of the others are clearly dodging him, I am keeping my fingers crossed that one of the taller up and comers has the skill and determination and can muscle up enough to give Wladimir the real challenge he needs to be respected. Vitali, Lennox, Riddick, Evander and Mike like their predecessors all had some great fighter to challenge them, Wladimir never has because he wont fight his brother. David Haye was refreshing but I think it will only come from another giant. One thing I noticed though is they are all a bit unconditioned or bean polish compared to the Klits. You said Helenius could challenge elsewhere, I agree. Also I think big mouth Tyson Fury should make fight eventually with Wladimir too. He's been very vocal calling Wladimir a bitch, Vitali a pensioner and Haye a pathetic loser lately haha :) think he wants them.

      • Tommo says:
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        #5901 Tommo (2013-04-04th)

        I rewatched Vitali-Lennox. I don't see what you see Honza. A couple big uppercuts landed by Lennox late in the fight but after a bit of clinching I thought Vitali came back strong. I thought Lennox was the more f*cked to be honest. No way to be sure but I still think if the Ukranian's eye hadn't opened up like that which was quite unlucky to begin with then Lennox would have lost. But that's just an opinion anyway. Besides he was definitely unprepared for that so can't take anything away regardless.

        • Honza says:
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          #5902 Honza (2013-04-04th)

          I was talking mostly about the sixth round. On the end of the round it was Vitali who was cornered and becoming pumelled by Lewis. Again my opinion but why you think that Vitali started clinching in the sixth so frequent. I felt he become a coward because he clinched everytime Lennox was preparing to strike. Please try again the sixth round and be careful to one specific clinch from Vitali. He looked like he can not hold on. But again it was very even. But if you watch second round it was Lewis who had to clinch to survive. I would give first four rounds to Vitali and last two to Lennox.

          • Honza says:
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            [ip2username: Bote Kitu]
            #5903 Honza (2013-04-04th)

            And about Fury you mentioned. I really do not understand why so many Klitschko chalengers have to trashtalk. It almost seem like they get paye for that. It is truly ridicilous when you see what then hapenned. For example Solis. What the hell. He had such a big mouth and after solid try he accidentaly broke his ankle. I do not even know where he is.

            • Tommo says:
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              #5908 Tommo (2013-04-04th)

              Yeah I think Ali started that, atleast started it as a mainstream form of pre-fight hype lol. I think it's evolved and degenerated over the years and now it's come to this haha. I must admit to cracking up laughing when I read the quotes of what Fury said though lol he basically had something smart ass to say about the entire HW division and that they are all pathetic lol, he's the worst. He's still so green and even though he is 2m tall he's acting like he's already beaten everybody worth beating. I think he'll get his ass kicked if he tries to fight any of the top tier yet, in addition to working on skills and a few more fights concentrating on the sendon rate fighters, he needs muscle and condition. The beater of Klitschko will need to be tall like him with the reach for a start. They will need the skill and speed they do and they will need to be well muscled. There are a lack of HW's at the moment that fulfil all those requirements.

          • Tommo says:
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            [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
            #5909 Tommo (2013-04-04th)

            I will watch the 6th again closely soon. I think I know the punch your talking about, think it was a big uppercut I seen. LOL I seen what you meant by Vitali sooking as soon as the fight was called off. When interviewed he didn't sound that intelligent no, but that might have something to do with being exhausted and getting punched hard a few times haha :) Lewis never lets us down either with his usual outburst of over confidence lol

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Bote Kitu]
    #5906 Honza (2013-04-04th)

    And again about the Lewis/Vitali fight. Maybe I just wanted Vitali to get beatn so bad. I really do not like him. :)

    • Tommo says:
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      #5907 Tommo (2013-04-04th)

      Haha that's ok Honza, we all need our heroes and villains to make the sport work lol. I find it ironic that you, being from a mostly Slavic nation, are one of the prime critics of the Klitschko's and proponent of the old American fighters. Kind of turned Admins attack on them on it's head since his most striking criticism has come from outside the US haha.

      • Honza says:
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        [ip2username: Gajy Xode]
        #5910 Honza (2013-04-04th)

        Thank you brother. I just finished watching Evander/Ray, Lewis/Ruddock, Evander/Larry fight. I have to agree with you that WAS GOLDEN ERA OF HEAVYWEIGHT BOXING.

        • Tommo says:
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          #5911 Tommo (2013-04-05th)

          Truly fantastic haha, I've been hijacking the TV lately as well =P Hey my email is [email protected]. Just realised me and you have been basically using the whole blog now for our private boxing chat room lol should save this space for the controversy haha =P

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Kymo Pewi]
    #5913 Honza (2013-04-05th)

    Out of nowhere I now have canadian flag. So I am Czech, European, American and Canadian at the same time. :D

    • Tommo says:
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      #5915 Tommo (2013-04-05th)

      Yeah not that I care either lol :) Yes you seem to have run the full array of countries now lol.

      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Jaky Ope]
        #5916 Tommo (2013-04-05th)

        Hey I was Canadian too lol. Going back to who could be a future threat to Wladimir, what is your opinion of this Deontay Wilder? I know he is a little bit skinny/lighter than Wlad and isn't as polished but he's a knockout puncher, tall as and conditioned like a race-horse. If he bulks up to 250 and continues to refine his skills he could be a solid threat.

        • Honza says:
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          [ip2username: Kymo Pewi]
          #5918 Honza (2013-04-05th)

          If only he could. He seems ipressive. I would like to see someone like him be the next big thing but you know. To beat Wlad you have to be something very special. I actually feel that one of a key featuers to at least stand the chance against Wlad is not showing any fear (just like Haye). Some people will not agree but Klitschkos are bullies just like Mike was. One of their prime weapons is intimidation. But I agree Wilder looks solid. No Riddick calibre of course. :)

          • Tommo says:
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            #5921 Tommo (2013-04-06th)

            LOL I do love Riddick, he is one of the greats. On that I think that Bowe would have been a prime candidate for the GOAT, but he let himself down in this department in the fact that whatever his reason he dodged Lennox, the greatest of his era. He should have fought him. He could have beat him I believe at this stage like you said. And he failed against Andrew Golotta and from his record I believe didn't like the idea of fighting someone as big as himself. But I do think that if he trained hard and had the determination like he said, he also had the tools to make it to the top. And I would much rather see him there than Lennox lol. I mean they say he didn't always fight like a big man but I believe the fact he had a well developed inside game as well contributed to his effectiveness. But he should have concentrated on his main game like the other GOAT candidates do to defeat his larger adversaries. He really is a could of case. But I wish he did have, he is one of my favourites too. He provided possibly the best battle of all time if there was a competition for that and I think he showed the heart of a champion for the time that he was.

            As for Deontay, I know what you mean. He is very good (Wladimir) and it's gonna take something special to give him the war he and we all need lol. He needs more defensive skill obviously, needs to be more than just a punch. And I don't like sounding like a size means everything guy but he definitely needs at least as much as Wlad if not a little extra to fill out his large frame. Every available prospect is a long shot at this stage. I only hope one of these promising up and comers can become good enough to mount a serious assault before Wlad gets old and retires. That might not be the best thing for Wlads legacy. I mean Lennox dominated but he wasn't without his challenges, he went out with the most style of any reigning champ. Whether he wins or loses a battle he needs one, I admit!! =P

  • thinker says:
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    [ip2username: Suza Zygo]
    #5920 thinker (2013-04-06th)

    Tommo

    You apparently are slightly mentally retarded. Look at this compilation of fights Ali: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkhpZoPOfZI and tell me how idiot must being, to say that Povetkin or another bum "would catch" Ali. You're probably insane. What does it mean that he would catch him? Man, Ali endured blows from FOREMAN who at that time had a record of about 45 fights and 40 + knockouts. He endured blows from Frazier, he endured blows from Norton, Lyle, LISTON and you're telling me that a pancake Povetkin "z?apa?by" Ali? Hahahahahha man, you're either a child, or have an IQ of a chimpanzee, or do the jokes, or you're retarded. I do not believe that you can be a grown man, watch Ali fight, watch the Klitschko fight, to know who he was Liston, Foreman, Frazier and say such things. I just do not believe it. You must be either retarded or mentally ill. I'm sorry for the expression, but what are you talking about man, it's really smacks of science fiction.

    Foreman was 6'4 "and weighed 220-225 lbs PURE MUSCLE and great strength. Liston was 6'0 1/2" and weighed 218 lbs, had BIGGEST HW ever fist, fist of the same size which is Nikolay Valuev, and Liston was a big puncher. Frazier hit Ali probably hundreds of times in the face during a fight in 1971, and you're telling me that pancake Povetkin would "grab" Ali, and Ali would be in trouble. Hahahaha :D. Man, you can't be serious.

    Larry Holmes was 6'3 1/2" and weighed 212 lbs of pure muscle, he was an athlete, naturally big, fast, tough. Holmes with around 45 years old narrowly lost on points with Holyfield who was then in his prime, and Holmes defeated Mercer.

    Turn on the fight Foreman-Foreman-Lyle or Norton. Man, Foreman of the period would have killed Tommy Morrison in the ring. Morrison was a boy with such a hercules as Foreman. Foreman as a grandfather had to defend themselves from attack more often than Morrison because he was too slow, too little nippy, agile enough to be able to do anything about it now. But a young, fast, strong bull Foreman from 1974-1976 would be in the fight against Morrison charged from murder. The only person who would have a chance against Foreman in his prime is Lennox Lewis and Vitali Klitschko, and of course Ali. Any other fighter would have been crushed, including Wladimir Klitschko.

    Seeing as Holmes and Foreman-boxers of the 70's, held their own in the 80 and 90 you should understand that Muhammad Ali would have beaten EVERYBODY in his prime '67. Including Lennox Lewis. Ali could have problems only with Vitali Klitschko.

    This article is horrible nonsense. And as I told earlier, in article about comparing Wlad and Foreman, these are many of lies. Foreman to 1977 has record 47 fights, and 42 f.cking KO, which give him more than 90% KO RATING! And Foreman has a record in a KO before 3-4 rounds. Please, stop bullsh*t with articles like that because this is unbelievable stupid.

    And Haye and Klitschko are FASTER THAN ALI?! HAHAHAHHAHAAHAHHHA:D Go watch this video which I gave here and tell me, how healthy not-retarded grown men, can say that stupid things?

  • Tommo says:
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    [ip2username: Jaky Ope]
    #5922 Tommo (2013-04-06th)

    Of the fighters you mentioned, Foreman is and still would be today a powerful force. Of course. He would always pose a threat to any era that has existed. I love Foreman. His actual and expected performance was and always would be based around his powerful punches. Not to say he was an oaf, young George exhibited an often underrated jab before he abandoned caution and old George displayed shrewd use of his talents in a measured tactical manner. Alexander defeated for instance Rahman easily, also noted for a big punch. That's not to say Foreman couldn't beat or knock Povetkin, he could. I don't think he could pulverise him like a Frazier. I never claimed George wouldn't be competitive. But the other fighters you mentioned fail when it comes to modern HW thinker. Frazier in my opinion is totally overrated and shouldn't enter in a discussion of modern HW boxing or with true greats. That a fighter like him actually became HW was very lucky. And Norton, well he was a very conditioned athlete, EVEN by todays standards. But he was a weak contender. Honestly, he got smashed by George and the fact he had a few wars with Ali is good for his old time resume but in reality was just what it was. He was easily challenged then, easily destroyed now. Alex Povetkin isn't the greatest by any measure today. Imo Klitschko would defeat him, without the great challenge I want for him. But he would still as the fat cake boy you describe him. Defeat the weak HW division that it was. Perhaps George and Ali could teach him a lesson in there primes. But they would be about the only 2 I would even give the chance. Liston. Come on man YOU can't be serious. I don't want to rip on old time greats but Sonny would not in any way pose a threat to ANY HW today. He was a bum beater. Have you watched his fights? He looks ridiculous. He looked aggressive sure when he was beating up cruisers and garbage men but come on, KO'ing Floyd Patterson counts as bashing his baby brother and as soon as he faced someone as big as him (Ali) he lost. Forget todays HW, imagine Sonny facing Tim Witherspoon of the early 80s? Bigger, better, would dominate Liston. I know you will not agree no matter what I say but to me it's so ridiculous you might as well compare O'Sullivan or something. The game got more professional. You can't get AWAY with what they did than and what they were then. But I still love them!! Holmes I consider bridging the gap between modern and old. He was the last of the "pure boxers" if you will, fighting outside without the really powerful punch. I never claimed Holmes wasn't competitive. His later fights were testament. He is almost the Ali you should be defending because he really could put it together with the new breed.

    Morrison/Foreman… News flash. Morrison could REALLY punch. Imo harder than George (but that's debatable) but most importantly a more underrated skill of Tommy's was that he could BOX. George had a jab but he was never going to win an accolade for skills. Imo, prime George, trying to bang Tommy out of there. Could have gone either way. We are talking about 2 vey even fighters here. But if you pressed me i'd say Tommy more times would knock him out. Foreman got tagged hard by Lyle when young, very impressive! But I think Tommy would have drive home harder! Foreman lost to Ali, fair and square within the rules of boxing. He would have lost a rematch, George fought stupidly and Ali was lucky to win to be honest. As for Lennox and Vitali, they would have dismantled the bomber with ease, Wladimir just as convincingly. There is not a drug in the world that could dope the 3 of them up enough for a different outcome. NOBODY who loves the golden age fighters, even big George REALLY believes that he could stand anything more than a punchers chance against those 3. I love George. He's a better person than them maybe… But he cannot defeat them! Ali didn't have the attributes to rank among his future fellows like Holmes and Foreman did. He would have done alright. But as soon as he faced any form of challenging opposition… He would have lost. If that fighter was by any measure a puncher… He would have been knocked out. Again look at him. He would be well advised to fight at cruiser and may have done very well.

    The bashing of old boxers I don't par