LET ME TELL YOU AN OPEN SECRET:

A lot of fans and experts know that Muhammad Ali would have not much chance against the Klitschko brothers (be it Wladimir Klitschko or Vitali Klitschko).

They know that the Klitschkos are far too modern to be endangered by any ancient fighter, even if it's an ATG like Ali.

Most fans and experts consider ·George Foreman, ·Earnie Shavers or ·Mike Tyson (or any other hard puncher) to be far more competitive against a Klitschko than Ali. They know that Klitchko vs Ali would be a mismatch.

I already wrote

• about Wladimir/Vitali Klitschko and Joe Frazier at Joe Frazier vs Klitschko -OR- is Chris Byrd a better puncher than Earnie Shavers?
• about Wladimir/Vitali Klitschko and Earnie Shavers at Earnie Shavers – Power hitter or overrated featherfist?
• about Wladimir/Vitali Klitschko and Mike Tyson at Tyson vs Klitschko -OR- Mike Tyson would KO Wladimir and Vitali within 1 round
• about Wladimir/Vitali Klitschko and George Foreman George Foreman vs Wladimir Klitschko – Who is the hardest hitter?

so it's time to analyze Muhammad Ali (aka Cassius X aka Cassius Clay) now.

 

Wash your face in _my_ sink, Muhammad!

This article is a boxing record analysis in the sense of "Who would win in the same ring?" ("head to head", "toe to toe", "prime for prime").

A different record analysis in the sense of "Who has the better achievements?" ("record for record") can be found at Boxing eras (#3) Wladimir Klitschko in the Golden Age of Heavyweight -OR- How abysmal was Ali's era really? and at Statistical analysis of heavyweight world championship records -OR- Joe Louis, Wladimir Klitschko, Muhammad Ali: Who has the best world title record?.

Before you continue, I suggest you check my definitions of bum[?] or featherfist[?] for which I apply a mathematical formula.

 

Cassius Clay, the cruiser -vs- Klitschko, the ultraheavyweight

Basically THE ONLY reason why people even think about comparing Wladimir Klitschko to Muhammad Ali is the ridiculous definition of *heavyweight*.

In Ali's times heavyweight was defined completely different (approximately 40 pounds lighter than nowadays) and EVERYBODY who glances at these pictures knows instantly that such "boys" would have no chance, even against modern B-level heavyweights:

The visual comparison is actually enough and my article should stop right here.

But the governing bodies messed up the term "heavyweight" thus you landed on this page and I have to write about CLAYPIGEONS vs STEELHAMMERS.

Would ancient boxers like Muhammad Ali or Joe Louis be appropriately named CakaHweights (= "Cruiserweights AKA Heavyweights" or "Cruiserweights formerly known as heavyweights" or "170-pounders") and would modern heavyweights (like the Klitschkos, Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson etc) be named appropriately (e.g. "ultraheavyweights") it would be sufficiently clear how laughable a comparison is.

But back then they didn't have the term "cruiserweight" and they simply called all boxers from around 165 lbs and up "heavyweights". Thus fights like 163 lbs vs 172 lbs (·Philadelphia Jack O'Brien vs ·Tommy Burns) were called "heavyweight" (picture below), which confuses fans to this very day.

 

In Ali's times "heavyweight" was defined as 176+ lbs
which is lighter than today's female heavyweight division.

-and-

Clay/Ali and Joe Louis (the two boxers from the pictures above)
out-weighed their opponents
in approximately 75% of the fights
hence to compare Louis' or Ali's records to the records of modern heavyweights is even more laughable
than the body comparison already is.

-and-

Clay/Ali had supposedly his prime in the 1960s.
His median weight in the 1960s was 199 lbs.
Nowadays Prime Ali wouldn't even be ALLOWED to box against the Klitschkos.

 

"Weight is not everything in boxing"

I already know how AliFants ("Ali fantasizers") try to cover up this truth (= that Ali was merely a blown up cruiser).

They will chant "Height And Weight Are Irrelevant" (HAWAI). I discuss this HAWAI myth at Height and weight are irrelevant at heavyweight boxing -OR- Joe Louis vs Primo Carnera, Abe Simon, Buddy Baer.

Thus let me only say so much here:

Boxing is divided in weight classes for a reason, dear AliFants. There are no height divisions, age divisions or reach division, because weight at heavyweight boxing is one of the _most_ important factors.

 

Muhammad Clay – A fast athletic heavyweight with great stamina and a granite chin

The main reason why Ali turned from a light heavyweight to a 200+ heavyweight is because he got fatter ("From light heavyweight to lard heavyweight").

Now, I personally think that chubby boxers can actually have an advantage because of the protective assets of fat, but nevertheless anybody who insists on an "Ali vs Klitschko clash" has to be reminded of the fact that there are 2 versions of Muhammad Ali

1. Clay, the cruiser: With a suspect chin (see below)
2. Ali, the heavyweight: Fat and plodding, with a better chin but far slower

I know that AliFants ("Ali fantasizers") love mind melts ("a fast Ali with speed and a durable chin") but such Ali never existed, except for rare moments.

 

Muhammad Ali and his abysmal KO performance

Clay/Ali is one of the most featherfisted champs in the history of real[?] heavyweight boxing ("like a butterfly").

Usually if you talk about Ali's boxing merits then fans mention "speed", "stamina", "reflexes" and "chin" BUT NOT "power".

Because AliFans know exactly that their man was rather a powder puffer than a power puncher.

But even to fans it comes as a shock HOW ABYSMAL Clay/Ali's KO performance actually was.

His overall KO ratio is not that bad, but that's because he KO'ed a lot of bums[?] and cruisers (= sub-200 opponents).

But once you delete bums and cruisers and overlate KOs (= in round 13+) off the record (to have a more realistic assessment of his KO power as compared to modern heavyweight times) you find out that he scored the following SEVEN KOs in his entire career

• ·Sonny Liston (1st fight): Sonny (most probably 37 years old, some even claim 45 years old, thus probably Ali's second oldest opponent), retired on his chair due to a shoulder problem (he had an inflammated shoulder that tore up during the fight).
• Sonny Liston (2nd fight): The most contested KO in heavyweight history for several reasons, for example: The referee didn't even start to count. Also mention worthy is that Liston's wife and son were kidnapped prior to the fight by Ali's friends (the Black Muslims).
• ·Cleveland Williams: Williams was gun-shot prior to the bout, had intestines removed, parts of the kidney, couldn't train properly and came to fight with a limping and atrophied leg (you can see how the left leg is thinner than the right one). This fight was a disgrace for boxing.
• ·Ron Lyle: The referee stops the fight without a proper knockdown. (wikipedia) "Ali then hit Lyle with a strong right hand and then followed up by hitting Lyle with an unanswered combination before the referee hastily stopped the fight. However, Lyle's corner was not happy with the referee’s decision to stop the fight, Lyle was interviewed after the fight and had no visible signs of injury. Given the nature of most fights in the same era, before and after the fight, the stoppage was very unusual"
• ·Alvin Lewis: Referee stops the fight for Lewis being on his legs but extremely exhausted. Lewis was 224 lbs and this makes it Ali's heaviest KO win.
• ·Zora Folley: An uncontested KO, however Zora Folley was only 202 lbs and nearly 11 years older than Ali. He looks like a cruiser and fights like a cruiser. Actually 202 lbs isn't even considered a cruiser nowadays anymore.
• ·George Foreman: A contested KO due to the circumstances:
  • The fight happened in the rain forest (open air) during the rain season in Africa ("Rumble in the jungle")
  • Foreman was held captive by the regime
  • Foreman was life threatened and had to import food from the USA
  • Ali's trainer admits to have manipulated the ropes
  • Ali's co-trainer claimed he paid the cooks to poison Foreman
  • and Foreman indeed to this very day insists he was poisoned ("I climbed into the ring with that medicinal taste still lingering in my mouth")

While none of Klitschkos' KOs are contested (they simply beat their opponents violently until they collapse) Ali has a hard time to show us even one valid understandable KO.

 

Compared to other heavyweight champs Ali ranks at the all-time bottom (he is bottom #4), and if you are interested you can read the entire tables

• at Boxing eras (#4) Golden Age of Heavyweight -OR- Is the Klitschko era the first heavyweight era in history?
• and at Hardest hitters of boxing: KO stats of Tyson, Klitschko, Foreman, Shavers and other knockout artists

 

Now, EVEN IF you accept all of the above 7 KOs as valid KOs the fact remains that Ali's KO'performance is #4 from the bottom of all heavyweight world champs to date, and this is already generous…

• …because it includes ·Tony LaRosa (at bottom #2) (who was a champ without winning it in the ring)
• …because IT ALSO INCLUDES Ali's contested KOs (see above) AND his overlate KOs (round13+).

Thus if you would exclude Tony LaRosa and all of Ali's contested KOs then Ali would probably the most featherfisted champ of all time.

Muhammad Ali is the most famous
extreme featherfist ("like a butterfly") of all time!

That such a featherfist like Ali could rule the division for so long shows you in what a bad state the Golden Age of heavyweight boxing really was.

There are 2 reasons why Ali's KO'performance is so bad:

1. His merry-go-rounding (= floating) as a substitute for his bad reflexes (see below)
2. His RELUCTANCE to punch ("Cassius Nay").
   Every time I watch an Ali fight (or even when I see footage of him training on the sand bags) I see him postponing/weakening his punches. A good example is when George Foreman goes down. Any other boxer I can think of would have punched Foreman on his way down. That Ali didn't is a sign of his typical cowardly reluctance to punch.

 

 Johnny Carson (The Tonight Show):

"This just in from the News Room… Muhammad Ali and Alfredo Evangelista have just been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize – For Promoting Non-Violence in Professional Boxing"

 

The fairy-tale of Muhammad Ali's phenomenal reflexes

Ali's reflexes are a blatant lie.

Let me rephrase: Of all assets Ali supposedly had "reflexes" are the most frequent and most outrageous lie.

Let me rephrase again: Ali's reflexes are GROSSLY overrated. They hardly exist ("Muhammad Zero"). They are an invention.

I know that AliFans CLAIM that Ali had great reflexes.

I know that AliFans are great at watching YouTube clips that feature Ali's supposedly superior reflexes. But, sorry, you should not be interested in YouTube clips.

You should watch Ali's entire fights
not some best-seconds-of-career snippets.

 

In rare moments Ali indeed managed to dodge punches.

In these rare moments it was mainly because he stood out of range, not because of his reflexes.

• In 90% of the time ALI WAS REFLEXLESS.
• Ali got hit by the slowest punches as soon as he was in range.
• He absorbed everything with his face and body ("Mo'hammered Ali").
• He got pounded in fights and in sparring.

It seems as if he was BLIND to punches. He didn't see them coming and he didn't want to see them coming.

And you know what? Being hit WAS EXACTLY Muhammad Ali's FIGHTING PLAN:

Laila Ali (Ali's daughter and also a boxer):
"His strategy was for people to beat on him to tire his opponents out."

and

"He had an unusual ability to take punishment. Ali sometimes took delight, to take blows."
Howard Cosell, sports journalist

and

Ali during the training for the Larry Holmes fight:
Q: "Ali, Why you keep getting hit?"
Muhammad Ali: "I want to get accustomed to the blows."

Laila Ali and Howard Cosell describe what everyone can see who watches a full Ali fight (not some Youtube clip): His strategy was to be hit until he had out-staminized his opponent.

Here lies the MAIN reason for Ali's abysmal KO performance: Because of his lack of reflexes he developed what-he-called "floating" ("merry-go-rounding"):
He would "dance" around his opponent 3-4 feet away so his opponent would not be able to hit him. Well, of course he wouldn't be able to hit the opponent either, but since his strategy was to out-staminize his opponent it wouldn't matter anyway.

 

Just watch the opening round of Muhammad Ali vs Mac Foster. (And PLEASE do NOT watch some YouTube best-of-round compilation).

This is THE TYPICAL coward style of Ali: Circling around the opponent far away, reluctance to engage ("Cassius Nay"), missed punches, punching while moving backwards.

Then switch to round 4+ to witness Ali's "out-of-this world reflexes".

 

The legend of Speedy GonzAli

Muhammad Ali could be fast. At least while he was still a cruiser (below 200 lbs).

As a 200+ heavyweight his speed was nothing special.

Chris Byrd's and Eddie Chambers' hand speed is faster than Ali's and they both never posed a KO threat to Wladimir Klitschko.

In fact all the flurries that AliFans may point out (YouTube snippets) are just that: Flurries, wind makers, shoe shine combos.

Had they been any good then his KO performance wouldn't be so bad.

 

There is another reason why people consider Ali's speed and reflexes to be good:
Ali's early footage (black and white) is sometimes played at the incorrect speed. Thus you get this typical Charlie Chaplin'esque "fast forward" quick-motion effect. If you don't exactly check whether a 3-minute round lasts exactly 3 minutes then you might have been fooled by the time-lapse of "ChALI Jablin".

 

The myth of Muhammad Ali's iron chin

Whether Ali's chin is hard or not is unclear.

I know that good-old-time nostalgists love to point out Ali's hard chin but he DID get knocked down (e.g. by bummy featherfist ·Henry Cooper 185 lbs). And he DID get knocked out (retired on his stool).

Let's analyze a bit closer whether Ali's chin has really been proven against hard hitting punchers.

Let me first point out a very important fact:

It's typical for former cruisers that they are featherfists at heavyweight.

A cruiser who might have an impressive KO'performance at cruiserweight will "suddenly" turn into a featherfist as soon as he moves the division up to heavyweight.

Obviously a lot of cruisers rely on their speed to KO their cruiser opponents. As soon as they (and their opponents) rise to 200+ lbs their KO'power "miraculously" vanishes.

Famous examples of this effect are Evan Fields, Michael Moorer, Earnie Shavers, Joe Frazier and… Clay/Ali himself.

These are very good boxers (as cruisers) but although they perform somewhat well at heavyweight they can never leave their cruiser heritage behind:

You see how the KO'ratio suffers immensely as soon as cruisers move up. Actually their fabulous KO'ratio at lower weights has nothing whatsoever to do with their KO'performance at higher weights.

Since 39 (of Clay/Ali's 50) opponents have been cruisers or former cruisers their punching power was FAR LESS than good-old-time nostalgists believe. Surviving former cruisers is an utterly different task than surviving genuine heavyweights.

Of the 50 opponents whom Ali faced only 11 were natural heavyweights.

Of these 11 natural heavies 4 have been bums, e.g. featherfist Chuck Wepner 35(17)-14, who (although bummy) managed indeed score a knockdown against Ali.

Of the remaining 7 opponents only 2 have a KO'ratio 70%+ (= hard punchers) in real heavyweight fights:

• Ken Norton (70%) (with a doubtful chin himself), who broke Ali's jaw in the second round ("Clay's Clay chin") and won
• George Foreman (84%), inconclusive fight and dubious win (see above), who blood-tore Ali's intestines apart

Sonny Liston (who scored 5 KOs against 215+ lbs opponents in his whole career) is mention worthy but Clay/Ali didn't win both fights due to a superior chin but due to stink'n'running.

In other words: Ali's punch resistance against heavy hitters has been far less tested than good-old-time nostalgists claim.

And more importantly: EVEN IF Clay/Ali's chin had been tested against punchers, it's still true that Clay/Ali DID NOT face anyone as hard punching as the Klitschkos.

His hardest punching opponent was ·George Foreman, but as I wrote at the beginning of this article the win was dubious and moreover George Foreman is several punch classes below Wladimir Klitschko (based on the KO'speed and quality of KO'victims).

In other words: You can not deduct from Clay/Ali's chin performance how he would fare against the Klitschkos.

If you want to interpret "Ali vs Foreman" somehow,
then interpret it as "Ali ducked a Foreman rematch at all costs until Foreman retired"

 

Here is a description of Ali's fight against ·Henry Cooper (a 40-14 cruiser bum[?]):

"Cooper did not have a trainer at this time and his own regime led to him losing weight; Cooper claims lead was inserted in his boots for the weigh-in, and estimates he actually weighed 180 lbs, making him 27 pounds lighter than Clay. Commentator Harry Carpenter remarked during the introductions on the difference in size between the boxers…

In the dying seconds of the fourth round, Cooper felled Clay with an upward angled version of his trademark left hook, "Enry's 'Ammer". Unfortunately for Cooper, Ali's armpit caught in the ropes going down, which prevented his head from striking the canvas covered boards which made up the floor of the ring (something which could easily have knocked him unconscious). Clay stood up and started slowly towards Angelo Dundee who –in violation of the rules– guided him into the corner. A still-dazed Clay got up off the stool after several seconds, but Dundee sat him back down and used smelling salts to help Clay recover (this was a serious violation of the rules).

Dundee has since claimed to have opened a small tear in one of Clay's gloves and told the referee that his fighter needed a new pair of gloves, thus delaying the start of the 5th round.

Cooper has always insisted that this delay lasted anywhere from 3–5 minutes and denied him the chance to try to knock Clay out while he was still dazed. In tapes of the fight it seems Clay only received an extra six seconds (although there are still doubters who think a longer delay was edited out), and the gloves were not replaced. When the 5th round started, Clay ferociously attacked Cooper's cuts, leaving him streaming with blood; referee Tommy Little was forced to stop the fight in the American's favor although Cooper was ahead on the scorecards.

After this fight, a spare pair of gloves was always required at ringside."

(wikipedia) Henry Cooper

In my view this fight disqualifies Ali from any consideration as hard chinned.

 

Muhammad Ali — A suspect chin or The greatest clown to ever box?

You may have noticed it in a lot of boxing fights:

When a boxer is hurt after a punch he sometimes starts to grin, to grimace, to shake his head (as if to say "It didn't hurt me") or to hop up and down.

Ali did that a lot. Talking, hopping, shaking his head, gaping his mouth, leaning on the ropes, making faces (see also Muhammad Ali — The one man zoo). Especially after being hit.

Now, since Ali for many is more of a religious figure than a real world boxer AliFants usually interpret it as "Wonderful! What a showmaster! Look how he floats'n'dances and what beautiful faces he makes."

But objectively one should probably interpret it as "Muhammad Ali got hurt" and "Cassius Clay's chin cracked".

Add to it Ali's excessive holding and you can probably deduct a much more accurate picture of Ali's chin qualities (or lack thereof) than all the fairy-tales suppose.

 

Wladimir Klitschko's and Vitali Klitschko's KO performance

At Hardest hitters of boxing: KO stats of Tyson, Klitschko, Foreman, Shavers and other knockout artists I analyzed already the KO ratios (and other KO stats) of the heaviest hitting KO'ers of all time and nobody comes close to Wladimir Klitschko and Vitali Klitschko.

The Klitschkos are KO PHENOMENA and it is UNPARALLELED in the history of heavyweight boxing what each of them is doing (especially Wladimir Klitschko).

If you talk about
Muhammad Ali -vs- Wladimir Klitschko
or about
Vitali Klitschko -vs- Muhammad Ali
then you talk about
THE HARDEST HITTING CHAMP of all time -vs- THE SOFTEST STROKING CHAMP of all time

It's literally "Iron Fist vs Butterfly" and "Steelhammer vs Bee".

Ali has not remotely been exposed to such KO'performers like the Klitschkos.

The Klitschkos on the other hand have faced only 3 opponents (out of 100+ opponents) who were more featherfisted than Ali (= needed more rounds per KO 200×2 than Ali):

• ·Mark Wills KO1
• ·Mark Young KO2
• ·Julius Francis KO2

Well, no wonder, if you look like a light heavyweight you punch like a light heavyweight:

 

Now, EVEN IF you don't believe in superlatives like "hardest" and "softest" you have to understand that Ali's chin would have to withstand a power that it was never exposed to, while the Klitschkos would fight somebody who ranks among the weakest punching opponents they have ever faced and poses literally no punching threat to them.

And before someone mentions that "Ali survived Joe Frazier, Earnie Shavers and George Foreman who had comparable power to the Klitschkos"…

No, they hadn't. Click the links that I mention at the top of this article where I analyze Shavers and Frazier and Foreman. Wladimir Klitschko's power is SEVERAL leagues above them.

 

Did Muhammad Ali face anyone like the Klitschkos?

Well, let's listen for a second to the delusions Angelo Dundee (the trainer of Ali):

Q: "How would Ali do today, with the huge Klitschko brothers?"

Angelo Dundee: "He would’ve stopped both of them. See, Ali looked great against big guys – Cleveland Williams I’ll give you as an example, a huge guy. Another guy, most people haven’t seen the fight, a guy named Duke Sabedong from early in Muhammad’s career. He was like 6'6''. Ali's speed would have overcome both Klitschko brothers."

Either Angelo Dundee is in denial or he tries to brainwash us (just like other boxing experts):

·Cleveland Williams was 6'3'' (and was outweighed by Ali and additionally couldn't train since he was lying in the hospital after a gun-shot, as I wrote at the beginning of the article) and ·Duke Sabedong was not KO'ed. And it's jaw dropping that Dundee compares a Klitschko to Sabedong, who is a 17-16 bum (which is by the way the very reason why he says that "most people haven’t seen the fight").

It's exactly such completely unreflected nonsense like this that makes boxing fans think that Ali would have chances against the Klitschkos.

 

What were the tallest opponents Muhammad Ali KO'ed?

The tallest guys Ali KO'ed were 6'4'':

• ·Richard Dunn 33-12 (= bum)
• ·Charlie Powell 25-11 (= bum)
• ·Billy Daniels 23-22 (= bum)

 

What were the heaviest opponents Muhammad Ali KO'ed?

The heaviest guy Ali KO'ed (within 12) was

• Alvin Lewis 224 lbs KO11 (the heaviest!)

The median KO'victim of Muhammad Ali is 197 lbs.

 

What were the most experienced opponents Muhammad Ali KO'ed?

The most experienced opponent Ali has ever faced (experience in 200×2 fights at time of the bout) was

• ·George Chuvalo 34-11
• ·Earnie Shavers 29-4
• ·Oscar Bonavena 27-4

Ali, of course, couldn't KO these guys.

In fact the most experienced guys he could KO were

• ·Cleveland Williams 23-3, 210 lbs, the one with the atrophied leg (see above)
• ·George Foreman 23-0, 220 lbs, the inconclusive fight (see above)
• ·Alvin Lewis 13-3

It should be clear that by having a real heavyweight record of approximately 60 fights Wladimir Klitschko would be by far the most experienced and most dangerous opponent Ali has ever faced.

 

What was Ali's own heavyweight (200×2) experience?

Prime Ali (in the year 1967, if we believe Ali fans) had merely a real heavyweight experience of 8-0. Prime Ali's experience would be worse than nearly all of Wladimir Klitschko's opponents (all but 6 opponents).

Actually Ali's whole career experience is 28-4 (= 32  real heavyweight fights) and is nothing special nowadays. Wladimir Klitschko fought 31 opponents with such an experience (or even better).

And I am still generous here, because I counted 200+ lbs as "heavyweight" whereas 215+ lbs is the entry point nowadays (with Wladimir Klitschko's opponents being 234 lbs on the average).

Would we set indeed the margin to 215+ lbs (to have a more realistic assessment of Ali's experience in modern times) Ali's record would be merely 10-1 (instead of 28-4).

So how many opponents did Ali fight who were 215+ lbs (at bout) and who never boxed below 215+ lbs (as would be the case against Klitschko)?

• One: ·Buster Mathis

 

Prime Muhammad Ali (Prime Cassius Clay) vs Klitschko

People consider the 1960s to be Ali's prime (based on his speed and record).

Prime Muhammad Ali (1960s) (median weight 199 lbs) would be BY FAR THE LIGHTEST opponent the Klitschkos have ever faced. In fact, Cassius Clay would be so light he wouldn't be allowed to box a Klitschko.

The weight of Prime Clay/Ali's opponents was a median 196 lbs.

The Klitschkos on the other hand (median weight approx. 240 lbs) would be BY FAR THE HEAVIEST opponents Prime Clay/Ali has faced.

Please note that Ali's KO'ratio diminished rapidly as soon as opponents got heavier. Please read Joe Frazier vs Klitschko -OR- is Chris Byrd a better puncher than Earnie Shavers? for the figures.

In terms of real heavyweight experience 200×2 Prime Ali was 8-0 (8 wins, 0 losses). The Klitschkos fought only 9 opponents with so little (or less) experience. They KO'ed all of them (average KO'round 2).

Even Prime Ali's WHOLE experience (29 fights, including sub-200 fights) is nothing special. Wladimir Klitschko has won against 27 opponents with such an experience.

In terms of real heavyweight experience 200×2 Prime Ali's most experienced opponents were 23-3 (the aforementioned crippled Cleveland Williams, a former cruiser), 16-7 (George Chuvalo, a former cruiser, gave Clay a hell of a beating) and 13-1 (Charlie Powell). You see that even Ali's most experienced opponents would be far worse than the Klitschkos.

 

Muhammad Ali's footwork is too good for Wladimir Klitschko

A typical Clay-friendly argument is "Clay/Ali has superb footwork. Wladimir Klitschko has problems with movers".

Now, EVEN IF you consider Muhammad Ali to have good footwork (which he hasn't aside from his running away) then you have to realize that Wladimir Klitschko never had problems with the footwork of his opponents.

Quite the opposite: It was the stiff Ross Puritty and the marching forward Sam Peter who gave Klitschko the biggest problems.

And Corrie Sanders and Lamon Brewster are not world-famous for their footwork either.

No, neither Ali's footwork nor his powder jab are of any advantage for Ali.

 

So why did Muhammad Ali win so many fights if Muhammad Ali is so bad?

There are several reasons

• Ali was a stink 'n' run boxer ("Dirty Clay"). Clay/Ali is the most famous stinker in boxing history. Either he would do dirty tricks (thumbing, strangling, threaten with terroristic attacks a la My Muslim friends will burn down your house, etc…) ("Clay as Clay can", "Sting like a bee") or he would run (= circle around the opponent in a comfortable distance). Clay/Ali is actually a prime example how well simple street strategies (dirty fighting and running) work. Back in those days the referees were not too particular about it.
• The rumor goes that he fixed his early fights ("Cash us clay"). That's possibly the reason why he predicted so many of his early fights correctly. Since he always had a loose lip ("Long Tongue Ali") he possibly couldn't resist to brag about the outcome. There was even an official investigation to investigate whether Ali had his early fights fixed, but no one could find waterproof evidence.
• Muhammad Ali outweighed most of his opponents (73% of his fights). (Wladimir Klitschko only outweighs approximately in 50% of his fights.)
• Muhammad Ali was chubby. Not in all of his fights but in a lot. I believe that fat protects a boxer thus a chubby skilled heavyweight boxer (like Ali) has advantages over many opponents.
• Ali had great stamina. I give him that. His stamina and his possibly good chin were his best assets.
• Ali didn't duck anyone (aside from a possible Foreman rematch, but I admit that ducking a rematch is far less serious than ducking a match). Additionally Ali didn't duck any country. He fought in 13 countries (the most of all world champions). Only ·Nikolai Valuev (11 countries) comes close.
• The main reason for Ali's fame is probably that he was rrreally lucky regarding his rematches, see below.
• Ali is possibly clairvoyant. I give him that, too.
• 46% of his wins were against cruisers (or himself being a cruiser).
• 80% of his wins were against cruisers or former cruisers. Actually 11 of his fights were against former SUB-cruisers. In other words: Since the Klitschkos are not former cruisers but genuine heavyweights who never boxed below 220/230 lbs a large part of Ali's experience is useless.
• In 95% of his fights he was out-sizing his opponent (out-talling, out-reaching or out-weighing). Now, the Klitschkos do the same (there is nothing wrong in using your body advantages) but the point is that in a fight against a Klitschko Ali would suddenly himself be out-talled and out-weighed and out-reached. An utterly unusual situation for Ali, while a very typical situation for the Klitschkos.

The opponent with the biggest weight difference
in real heavyweight fights 200×2
whom Muhammad Ali ever managed to KO
was ·Charlie Powell (a 25-11 bum) who was
9 lbs heavier and 9 years older than Ali.

 

So… When you read the above facts it's clear that the typical constellations for an Ali win are simply not there:
He could not use dirty tactics nor has he a reach/height/weight/experience advantage.

Here is what somebody else wrote about why Ali won so many fights:

"The name of the game is to hit and not get hit, right? There's a thin line between defense and ridiculousness. Pernell Whitaker, Mike Tyson, Roberto Duran, Floyd Patterson, etc. – all prime examples. Easily some of my favorite fighters to watch, why? Because they could stand in front of their opponents all day and not get hit. THAT'S hitting without getting hit…

There's no skill in running away or holding your opponent. ANYONE can do that, Ali only got away with it because of his high status, he could do it right, and because of his list of competition (which overshadows how he beat most of that competition – running and holding).

Ali's an interesting character out of the ring. I could watch his interviews for hours on end and and still want more, and I admire him personally (at least in his non-radical days), but in the ring he was a joke. The only thing admirable about his ring skill and attributes was his ability to take punches in his rope-a-dope years. Other than that, he's nadda, zero, nothing, empty, not at all to be looked up to for his ring life.

If you like him or anyone else likes him, cool beans, but I find his in-ring performances a joke. I'm not going to hold it against anyone for having him as one of their favorites, but let's just get real."

(original quote)

and

"Ali came along with a style that had never been seen before. Hands held low, lots of foot movement and jabbing and running. The general public didn't like it at first, but after Clay won the championship from Liston in 1964, people began to believe. Ali would do absolutely nothing but run and duck and score a few jabs and still win the round… Later in his career, when he couldn't move like in his early career, he'd lay on the ropes (rope a dope) taking endless punches from just about everyone he fought and would throw an ineffective flurry at the end of the round and judges would give the round to him. Look back at some of those fights now and ask yourself, was he really the greatest? Several questionable decisions went to him on popularity alone. Don't shoot the messenger"

(original quote)

 and

"Saying Ali could/should mix with Klits is like saying Carl Lewis can outrun Usain Bolt, based on his legendary status alone."

(original quote)

 

"Muhammad Ali vs Joe Frazier shows how easy Ali would win against a Klitschko"

There are basically only 3 fights AliFants use to show the superiority of Ali against a Klitschko (aside from Ali's supposedly superior record as such):

1. Ali vs Foreman
   Foreman had a similar KO'power like Wladimir Klitschko, but I mentioned above that the fight was inconclusive (to say the least).
2. Ali vs Terrell
   Terrell had a similar height like Wladimir Klitschko, but Terrell is one the most featherfisted boxers.
3. Ali vs Joe Frazier
   Used an an example by AliFants to show how Ali can overcome being hit and how great Ali's stamina is.

 

So let's take a short look at Frazier vs Ali.

In that fight Ali went life-or-death ("Fight of the century").

Yet,

• Frazier was only 205 lbs (= 35-40 lbs lighter than the Klitschkos)
• Frazier was one of the most featherfisted champs of all time based on his KO'performance in real heavyweight fights (he is #56 of 64 world champs, real[?] heavyweight KO'ratio lower than Chris Byrd), while the Klitschkos are some of the most powerful KO'ers
• Frazier was only 5'11.5'' while the Klitschkos are huge
• Frazier was blind on his left eye
• Frazier was out-talled by Ali, out-reached and out-weighed, while the Klitschkos would out-tall, out-reach and out-weigh Ali
• Frazier managed to knock Ali down and won the fight
• Frazier was demolished easily by Foreman ("King Kong plays ping pong"), who is the only comparable fighter of the 1970s to Wladimir Klitschko (in terms of power)

So this fight objectively shows something that AliFants hate to read:

1. In our times Klitschko vs Frazier would be a PROOF of how terrible the division is.
2. Ali's performance against Frazier is a proof of what a limited boxer Ali was.
3. That Ali struggled (and lost) to such a small handicapped featherfist like Frazier is actually a proof that Ali would lose against a Klitschko.
4. That such a small handicapped featherfist like Frazier could actually be the world champion shows you how bad the golden era was.
5. Frazier is incomparable to a Klitschko and fades in every important regard.

 

Yet, in the bizzare world of AliFants the reasoning goes like this:

1. "Frazier is a terrific fighter, he was half-blind, yet look what problems he gave Ali!"
2. "But Ali persevered! He overcame this terrific fighter! Therefore Ali is the greatest!"
3. "Since he is the greatest he would beat Klitschko every time!"
4. "And you know what? Frazier is so terrific he beat Ali, hence he would beat Klitschko, too!"
5. "Whom have the Klitschkos fought? Ali has Frazier on his resume! The Klitschkos only fought bums!"

Only if you apply this deranged logic, Ali (or Frazier) have a chance against Klitschko.

And believe it or not, Frazier _IS_ one of the proofs of how easily Ali could beat Klitschko.

 

Ali's greatness is based mainly on his luck in rematches

See Muhammad Ali's legendary status is based mainly on his luck in rematches

 

Do those who claim "Muhammad Ali would win against Wladimir Klitschko" have any clue about boxing?

I have long suspected that fans of Muhammad Ali (and especially those who claim that Ali would beat a Klitschko) are some of the least knowledgeable boxing fans. They retreat into a fantasy past and have only little idea what works and doesn't in the boxing ring.

I once made a poll before the fight "David Haye vs Wladimir Klitschko" giving 4 options

(o) Haye will win against Wladimir. Ali would win against Wladimir.
(o) Haye will win against Wladimir. Ali would lose against Wladimir.
(o) Haye will lose against Wladimir. Ali would win against Wladimir.
(o) Haye will lose against Wladimir. Ali would lose against Wladimir.

And sure enough:

Of all the people who claimed that David Haye will win against Wladimir Klitschko 95% also claimed that Wladimir Klitschko would lose against Muhammad Ali.

Even I was astonished how far the delusion goes and how distorted the view of 1970s nostalgists is.

Obviously AliFants have no real clue

• how to interpret records
• how to predict likely outcomes
• how to asses abilities/qualities/performances/dominance of boxers

and (since David Haye had a big mouth like Ali and TALKED his way into the fight against Wladimir Klitschko)

• AliFants are probably fans of Muhammad "The Greatest" Ali, because they are easily swayed by boxers with a big mouth

 

My boxing blog every time a Klitschko wins…

Every time after a Klitschko beats YET ANOTHER opponent dominantly I notice a surge of visitors to my blog coming from search engines looking for "Klitschko vs Ali".

And in boxing forums the same old questions pop up: "How would Ali fare vs Klitschko?"

And every time these people gather together and pat each other on the back and repeat the same mantra "Yes, Klitschko DOMINATED yet another opponent, but he would LOSE against past-time greats."

In other words: Since Klitschkos humiliate their opponents (= they win round after round) boxing fans (mainly American boxing fans) have NOTHING LEFT except retreating into omnipotent delusions where the Klitschkos get KO'ed in every fight by the boxers of America 50-100 years ago.

It seems that Klitschkos not only dominate their opponents but also the fans of other boxers.

In other words: The statement "Wladimir Klitschko beats Muhammad Ali" is not a statement like "Rocky Marciano beats Muhammad Ali".

No, the FAINTEST idea, that Muhammad Ali might be the underdog against the Klitschkos is BLASPHEMY and an ATTACK on beliefs in one's glorious icons (Ali, Tyson).

Especially in Clay/Ali's case I often have the feeling that AliFants have some father-son relationship with Ali and the "Big Soviet threatens my daddy, thus I must protect my daddy!"

 

Summary

Muhammad Ali in his entire career has not seen REMOTELY such a power+size+experience combination like the Klitschkos.

On the other hand Ali's power+size+experience is nothing special (or even bad) compared to Klitschko's opponents.

Ali's figures are below average for nowadays boxing era: Median weight 212 lbs, median opponent weight 205 lbs, median KO'victim 197 lbs, height 6'3''.

Ali's style (e.g. "rope-a-dope", "making the opponent tire himself out on Ali's body") would not work against the Klitschkos.

Ali's only chance is to survive 12 rounds and win by decision, but how often does it happen that the Klitschkos even lose a single round?

After watching a lot of Ali fights I am not convinced. Ali struggles, Ali barely survives sometimes. Ali is lucky. He needs a lot of EFFORT to win against usually mediocre (or otherwise doubtful) opposition.

This is so far away from the dominance of the Klitschkos that I have no doubt that Ali would lose after being dominated. There is nothing in Ali's arsenal that could be effective, except maybe merry-go-rounding, which however wouldn't make Ali win the fight.

 

"Losing my religion" -OR- Why good-old-time nostalgists HATE this analysis

Why do good-old-time fetishists hate this article here?

Because it devalues a whole era since such an easily beatable guy like Ali could rule for 2 decades.

Because it completely ignores the mythological AURA of Ali and isn't impressed by Ali's out-of-the-ring performances. Both things (aura + out-ring achievements) is very dear to nostalgists (especially American nostalgists).

Because it exposes their myths as myths, and reinstates facts where necessary.

Additionally good-old-time nostalgists consider Ali's era not only "a good era" but the best era ("Golden Age of Heavyweight Boxing"). Thus Klitschko beating Ali not only questions an era BUT ALL AMERICAN eras:

To everybody who believes that

• Ali would beat Tyson
• Ali would beat Lennox Lewis
• Ali would beat Larry Holmes

my analysis here means that Klitschko could beat these guys even more so. Thus for nostalgists this article demotes past American champions to plastic belt holders.

In the very moment good-old-time nostalgists would admit that "Klitschko can beat Ali" they lose 2 dogmas of their religion: 1) Ali is the best and 2) The Klitschko era sucks.

 

Am I a Klitschko nuthugger and a Muhammad Ali hater?

No.

Let me make it clear that this article is not an issue of being a Klitschko fanboy or an Ali hater.

Whether I am a Klitschko fan or not is not deductible from this article. If I would say "Riddick Bowe had a better jab than George Foreman" it doesn't make me a Bowe fan or a Foreman hater.

I am simply looking objectively at facts and deducting the most probable outcome.

I believe that many modern heavyweights (let alone the Klitschkos) are too strong for Ali.

Let me also make clear that I don't have anything against Clay/Ali, the boxer, as such, but against Clay/Ali, the mythological figure.

But since Clay/Ali himself is the driving force behind all myths ("I am the greatest", "When I left, boxing died", …) fact and fiction is so interwoven ("Clayology") that anyone who exposes these myths is automatically seen as a "Clay buster" and a "Muhammad Ali hater".

 

How likely is a win of Ali against a Klitschko?

Yes, you can have the opinion that Ali would win against the Klitschkos. But you have to understand that this is NEITHER supported by Clay/Ali's record NOR by his performance. Thus when you insist that Clay/Ali would win you base it 70% on fantasy (wishful thinking) and 10% on his record and 20% on his real world performance.

Just imagine yourself fighting against a smaller guy, who has a weak punch (while you have one of the most devastating punches of all times) and is less athletic than you and has less reach and whom you outweigh by 20-50 lbs of pure muscles.

It's simply extremely unlikely that your opponent could win. Here is what two boxing experts have to say

"Ali never fought anyone who had the size and talent of the Klitschko brothers. If he did the rope a dope, he would have been rope-a-done! He would have had to pick up his mouthpiece (with several teeth in it) from the tenth row after he woke up on his way to the ambulance. Ali was talented but he couldn’t beat the Klitschkos."
(Kurt Wolfheimer, Fight News)

-and-

"There are a lot of fighters post Ali who could beat him, including Klitschko, Lennox Lewis and Tyson. Interestingly, Roy Jones, Jr. as a heavy might even have given Ali trouble!"
(Keith Stoffer, boxing manager)

In my opinion either it would be something like Klitschko TKO6 Ali or Klitschko DQ Ali (for repeated holding, which is so typical for Ali). In my opinion Klitschko wins 19 out of 20 times (and I am generous here).

George Foreman, the best boxer of the 1970s, would have far greater chances than Ali.

 

What would Wladimir Klitschko say to this analysis here?

I don't know. Possibly he would disagree because I heard that he admires Muhammad Ali.

But as I wrote at Muhammad Ali Quotes -OR- Cassius Clay's megalomania: You CAN admire Ali for his showmanship. But his showmanship does not change his real world in-ring performance. And Ali's trashtalking would not save him from Klitschko's punch.

 

So how would Muhammad Ali fare in the Klitschko era?

Ali was good in the (what-they-called-then) heavyweight era of the 1960s. Since then the division changed dramatically. I simply doubt that Ali would be competitive in the current era. He would be a massive underdog against the Klitschkos.

I personally see 2 likely possibilities for Ali in the current Klitschko era:

1. Muhammad Ali possibly could be useful as a sparring partner for boxers. Boxers could hire him to learn how to overcome stink 'n' run boxers since Ali (as I wrote above) was a runner (= always trying to keep a distance) and a stinker (arm holding, insulting, thumbing, etc..) ("Dirty Clay", "Clay as Clay can", "Sting like a bee").
2. The most probable development is however that he would fight as a cruiserweight and not as a heavyweight.
   You can see from this article here how the heavyweight division changed thus Ali probably would be a cruiser nowadays (if he could keep his eating habits under control).
   Since Ali's speed (compared to modern cruisers) is rather slow (yes, the weight class 175-200 advanced, too) he'd be probably a B-level cruiser ("Stink like a B"). But I may be mistaken here. Please comment below if you happen to disagree about Clay/Ali's chances against modern cruisers.

Since there is no draft nowadays in the USA and other circumstances are missing, too (Malcolm X, Zaire, racism, etc…) he would be pretty unknown, I guess. Possibly he wouldn't even become a Muslim (how many celebrities converted to Islam after 9/11?), and if he'd become a Muslim he'd probably not join the Nation of Islam, thus he wouldn't be named after a brutal war lord and slaveholder ("Muhammad Ali"). So Clay's life in our times would be very different.

 

 

Lennox Lewis vs Muhammad Ali

This article is mainly about Muhammad Ali.

This article is not about Wladimir Klitschko.

I barely feature any statistics of the Klitschkos here.

This article is about an objective assessment of Muhammad Ali, and how the hype is not supported by reality, and how bad Ali performed in some areas.

Therefore: Would the current world champ not be Wladimir Klitschko but, say, Lennox Lewis, then I would come to the same conclusion: Against Lennox, too, Ali would be the underdog because there is nothing in Ali's record that shows a clear advantage for Ali.

 

 

So who could beat a Prime Wladimir Klitschko if not Muhammad Ali?

At heavyweight anybody can beat anybody.

So spare me funny remarks about RoCoLa (Ross Puritty, Corrie Sanders and Lamon Brewster).

And spare me funny remarks about pre-prime performances or sub-par exceptions (flukes).

I am talking about "Who would win against PRIME Klitschko most of the time?"

In my personal view ONLY the following boxers would have a chance against a prime Klitschko:

• Lennox Lewis. The outcome would be probably decided by whose corner Emmanuel Steward decides to be in (Steward is the trainer of both Wladimir and Lennox)
• Vitali Klitschko
• Larry Holmes
• George Foreman (if Foreman is rrrreally lucky)
• Mike Tyson (must be even luckier)
• Some others could survive (= not get KO'ed) by running or by having a granite chin (e.g. Evan Fields)

In this order.

That's about it.

Muhammad Ali vs Wladimir Klitschko - Fact-based analysis and prediction, 3.4 out of 5 based on 68 ratings