Are bums of the Klitschko era better than top fighters of Ali's era?

Let's make a comparison like it has never been made before.

Let's compare two fighters: An unnamed fighter from today (2013, Klitschko era) and an unnamed fighter from the 1970s (Ali era), who got a title shot against Muhammad Ali.

 

Let's call them Boxer Nineteen Seventy and Boxer Twenty Ten.

Boxer Nineteen Seventy has beaten the following 17 opponents at real heavyweight 200×2 when he got a title shot against Muhammad Ali:

#Fight result of Boxer Nineteen SeventyOpponent's record at bout
01 WKO72-5
02 WKO63-1
03 WKO317-4
04 WKO26-10
05 WKO724-20
06 WKO816-10
07 WKO313-19
08 WKO26-9
09 WKO410-13
10 WKO23-5
11 WKO314-3
12 WDEC1016-8
13 WKO38-15
14 WDEC1022-13
15 WKO716-9
16 WKO925-7
17 WDEC107-6

Fistic Statistic [#4088.1]

Additionally Boxer Nineteen Seventy has beaten the following cruiser opponents sub-200 before his match with Muhammad Ali:

#Fight result of Boxer Nineteen SeventyOpponent's record at bout
01 WKO51-1
02 WDEC65-6
03 WKO37-0
04 WKO65-2
05 WKO95-2
06 WKO31-0
07 WKO218-6
08 WKO44-2
09 LKO812-2
10 WDEC1021-20
11 WKO522-16
12 WKO712-3
13 WDEC1027-18

Fistic Statistic [#4088.2]

Please note the loss against one of his better opponents (12-2).

 

All in all a rather doubtful record and not too good to be considered a worthy challenger of Muhammad Ali, right?

Wait, it gets worse, since the records of his opponents (second column) contain a lot of non-heavyweight opponents, too.

Take for example the third fight (= WKO3 win against the 17-4 opponent). "17-4" This sounds somewhat OK, but this 17-4 record consists of barely any real heavyweight 200×2 fights.

In other words the…

  • heavyweight worthiness
  • heavyweight experience
  • heavyweight background

…of this 17-4 opponent is far less than nowadays when you fight a 17-4 opponent at heavyweight.

 

OK, now let's check Boxer Twenty Ten. A modern boxer. A sparring partner of Wladimir Klitschko.

 

He has currently the following record:

#Fight result of Boxer Twenty TenOpponent's record at bout
01 WKO22-2
02 WKO11-0
03 WKO11-1
04 WKO13-5
05 WKO16-15
06 WKO11-2
07 WKO13-4
08 WKO12-0
09 WKO17-1
10 WKO34-7
11 WKO14-2
12 WKO19-0
13 WKO417-20
14 WKO111-38
15 WKO215-6
16 WKO16-6
17 WKO246-15
18 WKO220-11
19 WKO317-3
20 WKO111-1
21 WKO423-10
22 WKO110-2
23 WKO329-10
24 WKO123-5
25 WKO214-0
26 WKO313-0
27 WKO215-8

Fistic Statistic [#4088.3]

 

So the at-a-glance pre-titlefight records of both boxers look like this:

 

pre-titlefight record nutshellBoxer Nineteen SeventyBoxer Twenty Ten
Sum of opponents records348-235313-174
Sum of opponents 200×2 record70-64173-101
Opponents average record11-711-6
Average real heavyweight record of real heavyweight opponents3-36-3
Total KOs opponents have scored143 KOs198 KOs
Total KOs opponents have scored in their 200×2 fights30 KOs115 KOs
Median weight of opponent201 lbs230 lbs
Median weight of KO'victim202 lbs230 lbs
Rounds between KOs7 rounds between KOs (162.5 rounds for 23 KOs)1.2 rounds between KOs (35 rounds for 27 KOs)

Fistic Statistic [#4088.4]

 

Now, completely objectively Boxer Twenty Ten has a far superior record than Boxer Nineteen Seventy.

In terms of real heavyweight 200×2 we can say that Boxer Twenty Ten has a record approximately 40-50 times better than Boxer Nineteen Seventy,

  • because he faced opposition twice as good (6-3 vs 3-3 on average)
  • because he has beaten opposition far heavier (230 lbs vs 202 lbs)
  • because he has KO'ed all of his opponents (27 KOs vs 23 KOs)
  • because he didn't lose to a 12-2 cruiser
  • because his KO'speed is 5 times faster (1.2 rounds between KOs vs 7 rounds)
  • because he scored twice as many KOs (27) in real heavyweight fights 200×2 than Boxer Nineteen Seventy (14 KOs)
  • because he faced opponents who were far more proven/dangerous at real heavyweight (115 KOs vs 30 KOs).

So just by using core boxing properties like…

  • weight
  • opponent's record at bout
  • fight result (= win or not, KO or not)

…we can objectively state: Boxer Twenty Ten (Klitschko era) has a far superior boxing record than Boxer Nineteen Seventy (when he got a title shot against Ali).

We didn't even consider lesser known or less tangible properties like

  • athleticity (Boxer Twenty Ten is more athletic)
  • being out-weighed (Boxer Twenty Ten was outweighed in 70%+ of the fights, while Boxer Nineteen Seventy was outweighed only 40% of the fights)
  • years to compile this record (it took Boxer Twenty Ten only 4 years, while it took Boxer Nineteen Seventy 5 years)
  • winning streaks of his opponents (Boxer Twenty Ten has faced opponents who had a streaktotal of 57 wins/draws in their last fights, whereas Boxer Nineteen Seventy's opponents had a streakstotal of only 20 wins/draws = approx. 3 times worse)
  • and so on.

 

Adding everything up, one could make the case that Boxer Twenty Ten has a record approximately 100 times better than Boxer Nineteen Seventy.

 

So what do modern fans say about Boxer Twenty Ten? Here are some examples:

  • "A big mouth that has proven nothing."
  • "No hope"
  • "He is a joke"
  • "Bottom feeder"
  • "King of bum fighters"
  • "a one trick pony gimmick"
  • "Only fights soup cans"
  • "Fighting D class fighters"
  • "Fighting corpses"
  • "Patheric opposition"
  • "nothing more than a publicity stunt"
  • "hyped up no-hoper"
  • "most padded record in HW history"
  • "A turd"
  • "All talk"
  • "Muppet"
  • "Clown"
  • "No skill as a boxer"

…and on and on and on. Typical rants by boxing fans about about modern boxers.

And about Boxer Twenty Ten's Top10 WBC ranking modern fans write:

  • "Absolute con"
  • "He got promoted to position #9 on the WBC rankings? Corruption at its best."
  • "It's a joke!"

 

For modern fans Boxer Twenty Ten is a joke.

For modern fans it's inconceivable how Boxer Twenty Ten could even be ranked in the Top 10.

Would Boxer Twenty Ten get a title shot against Wladimir Klitschko it would be a proof of how the division sucks and how Wladimir Klitschko fights unworthy challengers.

 

Yet in Ali's times a boxer with a far worse record got a title shot.

Even worse: After the title fight against Muhammad Ali the record of Boxer Nineteen Seventy consists of losing 5x to A-level boxers (including getting KO'ed 3 times) and a few wins against B-level boxers.

But Boxer Nineteen Seventy got inducted into 2 Boxing Hall of Fames and is one of the greatest names on Ali's resume and a proof of the superiority of Ali's era. Boxer Nineteen Seventy is one of the shining examples of glorious times gone by. Boxer Nineteen Seventy is one of the four boxers, who are listed by name when boxing fans talk about "Teh Golden Age".

How is this even possible?

Because AliFants have no clue. They have no clue how to interpret records. And especially they have no clue how to interpret modern records. They rather dwell in childhood memories, glorifications of the past and "mystical skill levels".

 

Good-old-times nostalgists interpret failures as virtues and successes as failures

Additionally Ali LOST to Boxer Nineteen Seventy.

Ali LOST to him and that puts yet another bizarre layer of confusion into the heads of good-old-time nostalgists, because they consider Ali's defeats as a proof of greatness of his era.

It goes like this:

  1. Woooow! Boxer Nineteen Seventy beat Ali! Oh my god! He beat Ali. THE Ali.
  2. Boxer Nineteen Seventy must be a marvelous boxer. Only out-of-the world boxers are able to beat Ali.
  3. But now look! The rematch! Ali avenged his loss!
  4. Muhammad Ali is the greatest since he beat a boxer like Boxer Nineteen Seventy.

 

It's a triple confusion that good-old-time nostalgists sit in:

  1. First they cannot compare records properly.
  2. Then they confuse fame and childhood memoeries with resume.
  3. And then they convert failures (= losses, struggles) into virtues.

These are the ingredients of what I call "nostalgia delusion", which also goes the other way around:

  1. Modern records are interpreted as bad (even when they are much better)
  2. Modern boxers are considered bad, since their names are not well known
  3. When Klitschko beats an opponent easily (even if it was a multiple world champ) it's interpreted as a failure ("Such an easy win? Must have been a bum").

 

So all in all not a very convincing record of Boxer Nineteen Seventy, you might say right?

Well, that's what I would say.

Indeed, that's what modern fans would say. They would call him "bum beater" and B-level fighter.

Unfortunately modern fans say such things only about modern boxers.

When it comes to ancient boxers like Boxer Nineteen Seventy modern fans don't have much clue, hence prefer listening to good-old-time nostalgists who indoctrinate them that FAME NAMES are more important than actual records. Hence if a good-old-time-nostalgist comes along and claims that Boxer Nineteen Seventy is one of the prime examples of the greatness of Ali's era then modern fans tend to believe him and tend to assume that this Klitschko era does not feature such fine specimens like Boxer Nineteen Seventy anymore.

They assume that only Ali fought such boxers and that only in Ali's times such boxers existed.

Modern fans do not doubt that Ali's era was "Teh Golden Age" while the all modern eras are "ridiculously void of any talent".

 

Read also

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Comments (18)

  • Tommo says:
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    [ip2username: Xigu Zazy]
    #7037 Tommo (2014-03-01st)

    Let me weigh in with an educated guess…

    "Boxer Nineteen Seventy" is Ken Norton.

    "Boxer Twenty Ten" is Deontay Wilder.

    If so the result should be a 100% agreement for anybody with any sense of realism. Wider would knock Ken Norton out cold in the first round no matter what he did or how hard he tried under any circumstances (other than freak cardiac arrest).

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    • Honza says:
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      [ip2username: Zepi Duma]
      #7038 Honza (2014-03-01st)

      Of course Carl. We salute you for showing us how would Wilder vs Ken go. I also like how Admin stated again his fantasy about doubtful chin of George. George was koed once in 81 fights damn it. I also like how Admin came back only to show his one sided look on Ali. I was looking forward to another critisizing article instead of normal topic for example about modern boxers. For example showing us mistakes or flaws today boxers have.

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      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Xigu Zazy]
        #7039 Tommo (2014-03-01st)

        Well I must say if there was one comment in the entire article that was almost certainly wrong it would have to be that one Honza. He bases this entire claim on 3 things if I remember right..

        He was KO'd by Muhammad Ali – which he states elsewhere what everybody knows it was entirely gas related.

        He was dropped by Young, a featherfist late in the fight. Probably another gas issue.

        He was apparently hurt by the punches of Moorer too. A fight which old Foreman took one sided damage the entire fight almost unwaveringly and still scored a shock KO.

        None of which imo prove any such thing and to the contrary the Lyle, Morrison, Holyfield and Briggs fights prove quite the opposite. Foreman was iron chinned. There can be no doubt that George had great chin qualities.

        Have you ever been on BoxingNews24 Forum Honza? If you think admin is 1 sided here you would be right of course. But if you go on there you will find worse in the other direction. I mean much MUCH worse. I think admin is making a mild understatement when he claims that Ali fans (and nostalgic fans of boxing in general) are some of the worst fans in all of sports. I'm sure there are great and good fans like yourself elsewhere too that are even handed in treatment but that isn't the norm I have found.

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        • Honza says:
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          [ip2username: Gybo Webi]
          #7047 Honza (2014-03-04th)

          Correction of my previous comment. Yeah I have visited that site. And I can see a plenty of Klitschko nuthuggers. Maybe even more then Klitschko haters. I especially love arguments like: "I think it is obvious that Klitschkos are on roids". and answer: "I think you are retard".
          But of course Ali fants are terrible. You nail it admin. You super objective no fan of Wladimir Klitschko. :)

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  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Sady Jome]
    #7084 Honza (2014-04-03rd)

    Comments above were originally under different article. Why you replace them ADMIN?

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    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #7086 Admin (2014-04-03rd)

      The original article was deleted and split into 3 articles.

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      • Honza says:
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        [ip2username: Bote Kitu]
        #7090 Honza (2014-04-09th)

        Ok I see. Hey admin what is your opinion on Deontai Wilder? He already surpassed Vitalis record in koes (31 wins 31 koes). He is big but seems pretty untested. I personally think that his right hand is on same level as Wlads. But he needs to fight better oponents. Also his punches seems pretty sloppy sometimes. I actually hope he will be the next big thing. What is your opinion?
        I just visited article about Wilder on yahoo. Some Klitschko fan said that Vitali is OLDER then Lewis. I was like what? And nobody pointed that out. Not only he is not older but there was six years age difference and seven years career difference. (Lenny started in 1989, Vitali in 1996). I hope even you must admit that some of your fellow fans are fools. :)

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  • That Chap with the Stiff Upper Lip says:
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    [ip2username: Nuva Nymo]
    #7163 That Chap with the Stiff Upper Lip (2014-05-21st)

    Interesting stuff. I also saw it was Norton and Wilder featured here. It annoys me greatly when people say.. what ever happened to the heavyweight division?.. f*cking look at BoxRec and you'll see the old heavyweight division is the current cruiserweight division! That's why back then the heavyweights were smaller, faster ect. I've said this before.. I don't always agree with the stuff posted here but I always find it very interesting. Keep up the work fella!

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  • LasViega says:
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    [ip2username: Powe Zilu]
    #7235 LasViega (2014-06-06th)

    This comment of mine is copy/pasted from an older thread by OP concerning Wladimir Klitschko's chin.

    I will note that I've watched the 'Klitschko'-documentary. Great guys, greats sportsmen, but not the best the sport of boxing has seen IMO. I think the two Brothers make great champions (yes, I know Vitali is retired by now), but not as great as OP/admin and his KO-statistics want them to be…

    Note that the average Joe like you or me would most likely be exhausted within one or two round of professional heavyweight boxing, so I do not want to sound like someone who's disrespecting Wlad or any other professional, past or present, so when I consider chin I consider it compared to the world's best, like most of us would.

    OP/Admin's speculations along the lines of "Is it possible that Wlad has a good, even a very good chin" are utter nonsense IMO.

    And I believe NO, you cannot train chin per se, but:

    Your physique can affect your chin, your endurance/stamina is a crucial factor, your age is another one, mentally being willing to take a punch (heart) has an effect, accumulated punishment during your career will lessen your chin, of course being able to see punches coming and rolling with them will prevent you from going down, etc…

    Then there is the factor that chin (or lack thereof) is also determined by your brain's nervous system, the part that decides to put you down to protect you when it has decided that you've had enough, the factor that just cannot be trained or overcome IMO. It's a given to assume this threshold would individually differ and a hard-chinned boxer (i.e. Holyfield) naturally has this threshold set very high and in contrast would explain why a boxer who is otherwise in excellent condition (i.e. Wladimir Klitschko) just never had a granite jaw.

    Corrie would spank Wladimir again, again and again at any point during his career up until Corrie became a late great. Yup, you guessed it: A thourough, one-sided beatdown repeatedly recieved at the hands of Sanders. I've stated this earlier and I'm a firm believer.

    I am absolutely convinced Wladimir would lose a rematch against Corrie Sanders and Wlad VS Corrie is a definite proof that Wladimir never had an iron chin. Resorting to excuse Wlad's most definite KO-loss by blaming the ("Anvil'ing") headbutt? That is a completely unsubstantiated opinion, blowing the effects of a (few?) headbutt(s?) out of proportion and making it out to be something it is not = baloney. That dog ain't gonna' hunt.

    Had Wladimir had an iron chin he would not have gone down VS Corrie Sanders like he did. He would have taken the punishment and moved on, possbibly prevailed like his older, stronger Brother Vitali did. Then, of course, he's not his older brother, he's still good, but Vitali would whoop him any day of the week. We all know that.

    It is furthermore interesting to consider David Haye, who probably according to OP/Admin's opinion would be a "china-chinned featherfist" going the distance with Wlad. I'd like to see OP/Admin explain that, especially considering Wlad's impressive KO stats? And how come this "china-chinned featherfist" managed to KO Dereck Chisora when Vitali (almost equally impressive KO stats compared to Wlad) failed to do so?

    Also note that OP/Admin rejects the use of triangulation, but has resorted to triangulation in some cases when it suits him (i.e. Mike Tyson VS Jose Ribalta; Jose Ribalta VS other opponents). That means that whenever OP/Admin rejects triangulation, it is a double standard

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  • L-Train says:
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    [ip2username: Viu Taxy]
    #7274 L-Train (2014-06-13th)

    A sparring partner to many former heavies states that Wladimir hit the hardest of them:

    http://www.ajdugger.com/forum.html#nabble-td4090601

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    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #7318 Admin (2014-06-18th)

      Here's the quote

      Hello everyone. I'm a friend of AJ's from another forum. I used to box professionally from time to time, but nowadays I still spar. I've sparred with many legends. AJ asked to me describe what it is like to be in the ring with them and gauge their punching power. I will not reveal my name for personal reasons, but under anoymousity I feel a bit safer. If you want to know my identity send me an email, but I doubt you've heard of me anyway. I only had three professional fights.

      I fought Lennox Lewis and Riddick Bowe as an amateur.

      Riddicks power wasnt memorable to me. It probably got better as he got older, cause he never even remotely buzzed me in either of our contests.

      Lennox hit like a f*cking tank. He cowed me; I won the first round, and he literally broke my spirit and took my soul with a right uppercut and straight right hand in the 2nd. I tried to stay away, and forgot to punch. He never got me quite as good again, but I will never forget those two punches. When we sparred years later, he hit very hard. Distinctly unpleasant to be hit by the man.

      David Tua was unpleasant. I can't see myself getting stopped by him early, as he never really staggers me, but every shot hurt, and he'd bang. Every other guy I ever sparred would box when I got aggressive, but David would stand his ground and give. I'd get these horrible headaches after sparring with him, and Dave told me once that whenever he knew I was on the dance card, he'd drink extra water for his brain. Nice guy. Hit like a wrecking ball. David Tua hit hard enough to knock my headgear clean around my face. Dude had a pretty limited style, but that left was quick as a cobra when he was sharp, and boy did it have bite. Having sparred them both, Wladimir would school Tua and probably turn out his lights. He just lacks almost any sort of refinement to his violence. Granted, I don't really either unless I'm really, really on that day, but the best heavyweights I've sparred handled me a lot easier than David did.
      Feels kinda bad critiquing the dude, though. He's a fun guy, super hospitable and friendly, hit like a truck and put me through plenty of painful paces. I only hope our careers and lives don't end up with me required to face him with 12's and no mask. I can't afford the surgery.

      Evander Holyfield was a machine gun. He put me on my butt first round we ever sparred with a 7 or 8 punch volley. He just punched well; He'd move around and when he let them go, they hit, hard and fast and in large numbers. He was the weakest of the group since Bowe, but probably the most dangerous. He never found me difficult to find, and turned me into a bobble head more than once.

      George Foreman was tricky. His jab was absolutely numbing-Ive never felt a jab like that, where your whole face would feel like it got novacained after he hit you with it. He'd also throw light punches primarily, almost pitty pat, till he had the opening, and then he'd wallop you. His punches had the most force; They didn't hurt any worse than Tua or Lewis, but I remember how badly they'd screw with my balance. His shots moved me. He also broke my nose with a straight right.

      Wladimir Klitschko hit me by far the hardest, though. I couldn't get past the jab, and his right hands hit like thunder. They reminded me of Lewis', but they were quicker and sharper. Wladimir staggered me regularly in sparring. There are literally whole rounds I don't remember. He also knocked me out with a left hook. Not down, out. Only time in my life I've seen canvas and not been able to stand up by 10 seconds.

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      • Honza says:
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        [ip2username: Lymo Teji]
        #7340 Honza (2014-06-23rd)

        Very nice admin. Here is what he said when they asked him about those fighters. They asked who was the toughest, the best etc.

        These are some great questions.

        The toughest: Either Wladimir or Evander Holyfield. Wlad hurt me with every punch and I could never get anything going. He's the only man to knock me out. I'll never forget that left hook. Lennox had a great left hook too but chose to throw it in combinations. Wlad would crack you with it without warning.

        Evander Holyfield is tough enough to beat anyone. He counters every mistake you make and always hits you off balance or with a string of effective shots at once. He recovers really quickly too. Evander was tough and full of surprises. He's one of the best fighters of all time and I felt that just from sparring with him.

        The Best?: That is hard to say. I will say that Lennox Lewis deserves his praise as one of the greatest of all time. He could crack you with either hand and break your confidence. He had such long reach that we spent entire rounds where I couldn't get near enough to land a finger on him but he was comfortably plugging me with his jab from what felt like across the ring. I could rarely get close enough to land anything on Lennox and when I did he would crack me with that uppercut. He was dangerous to fight and could do it all. Brawl, slug, box, counter, everything. Lennox, Wlad and Holyfield are the best I fought but old George Foreman was a terror, too. So was Bert Cooper when he kept his head on straight.

        Greatest of All time?: Muhammad Ali from the things I've heard and seen. Joe Frazier and Joe Louis were terrific fighters as well. I'd have to throw Lennox and Evander into my top ten as well. Wlad is good but I think other heavyweights would toy with him.

        Prime Tyson and Prime Holyfield? I think Evander had Mike Tyson's number. I never sparred with Mike, and I might be a bit biased because he was an assh*le to me but Evander knew how to deal with Mike's style. Evander used to regularly spar with men like David Tua and Gary Bell, both men who were clones of Mike Tyson. Evander also conquered Ray Mercer, another Tyson-esque heavyweight. There isn't a style around that Evander Holyfield couldn't adapt to and beat.

        @KB50MJ. Yes, Wlad could crack. Hard. With men like George Foreman and David Tua it was more of the force of the punch than the punch itself. Their punches have a similar feel. To be fair I regularly sparred with the old versions of both but old George was tons better than old Tua: George had better ring generalship, a powerful jab and set you up with combinations or for a big knockout shot. David Tua was predictable and easy to figure out but can knock out anyone. I feel bad for critiquing David because he's such a nice man. A real teddy bear.

        I try to check in once a week at least so keep the questions coming.

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  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Lymo Teji]
    #7341 Honza (2014-06-23rd)

    This is really good page: http://www.ajdugger.com/forum.html#nabble-td4090601
    Here is my favorite about Holy and Lewis:
    Yes. I'm 6'4 and a half. Not as tall as Lennox but similar in size and range. Evander used me and a few other tall fighters who could mimic Lennox's style. Evander was very sharp when I worked with him but I had to leave camp early because my daughter was being born. When I was there Evander beat me up like he usually did but I heard from some others that in the months after I left Evander was complaining of cramps and arthritis. He was 36 years old and it seemed that his age was beginning to show. The closer to the fight, the worse it got.

    He was unusually arrogant in the weeks before the fight saying he would KO Lennox in the 3rd round. That was out of character for him but he told me later that Lennox made him really mad because he called him a hypocrit for being a christian but having so many children out of wedlock. That is one of Evander's buttons right there.

    I watched the fight on TV and Evander did not look good.Evander looked stiff and slow in the first two rounds but he plays possom a lot. I figured he gave away the first two rounds to conserve energy and murder Lennox in the third. He failed to do it and Lennox controlled the rest of the fight with ease. He accidentally stunned Evander in the 5th with a punch to the back of the head but didn't finish him fearing Evander was setting him up for a trap as he had with Michael Moorer two years prior. As I watched the fight progress it was clear that Evander was over the hill. He didn't have the speed to get to Lennox and couldn't get around Lennox's long jab and reach.

    I was pissed off when the fight was a draw but Evander was promoted by Don King. Go figure. The only person on the air who came out and said the obvious was Roy Jones Jr. This was Don's second time screwing Lennox Lewis because he hired a fake referree to help Oliver McCall steal the title from Lennox in 1994.

    I didn't work with Evander for the Lennox rematch but from what others told me, Evander was losing his skills. They planned to drain Lennox's strength by jabbing him in the body. I watched the fight and the strategy worked. Evander couldn't fight with Lennox all three minutes of each round so he had to dive in, attack and then escape. Evander turned it into a WAR! Having shared the ring with both, prime Evander would beat prime Lennox. Watch the rematch and see old Evander take it to prime Lennox. Lennox was huffing and puffing and hated those body attacks. He barely made it out alive! Prime Evander would have been busier and got the knockout.

    The rematch was close but I think Lennox still won it because he landed more punches.
    I share a same passion for old warrior Holyfield. I also noticed how tired Lewis seemed, whenrematch ended.

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  • LasViega says:
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    [ip2username: Bapy Lone]
    #7479 LasViega (2014-08-02nd)

    Admin has not responded, except quoting a sparring partner who's suffered a beating of late and current greats –

    – Only thing that's happened since last time I was on here is that some second-rate jack has down-voted my previous post (could very well be Admin/OP). I really don't care, as I know that post hit very close to home and just can NOT be explained away.

    Everything I said in that post I stand by.

    A big Thank You to the first voter who rated my post rather high ! Take care, man.

    I myself, much like Admin/OP have the "luxury" of living in a country that is not biased when it comes to boxing. In Norway they don't much show boxing at all on TV, professional boxing is prohibited by law here and it is not particularly popular to admit you prefer boxing and not football (soccer) where I live. In other words, the ban on professional boxing seems to have an influence on public opinion.

    Admin/OP is entertaining, but goes out of his way to discredit Ali in particular. Had Ali's boxing skills been so abysmal as OP claims, ("Complete reflex-less, walks into even the slowest of punches, wins only by gift-decisions, had George Foreman poisoned in "Rumble In The Jungle";", etc. etc. etc.) he would've never been heard of in the first place, would never ever win a professional bout or have any business whatsoever in the sport. OP makes it sound like Ali cheated his way to victory in virtually every bout !

    But we all know that's not the case.

    I've always preferred to look past plain statistics and getting at the core of the truth. That truth is not where Admin/OP claims it to be.

    What now, Admin ? Are you going to brand me a "Clayton", "Briton", whatnot ?

    I dare you to stoop to new lows.

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  • LasViega says:
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    [ip2username: Bapy Lone]
    #7480 LasViega (2014-08-02nd)

    My country flag should be Norway and not USA, as shown in my last post by the way.

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  • LasViega says:
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    [ip2username: Damy Jowe]
    #7483 LasViega (2014-08-07th)

    It wouldn't surprise me either, if now Admin/OP has tinkered and tankered with my IP (or something) to "brand" me as an American. My recent posts show me as coming from USA, but I'm from Norway.

    I'll give him one point – Ali might be overrated or even grossly overrated in some circles. But not nearly as bad as Admin/OP makes him out to be.

    Admin brings solid statistics to the table; however his own personal agenda against Ali in particular sometimes gets the best of him. He further denies being a "Klitschko nut'hugger" while plenty of me and others have pointed out the fact that's exactly what he is; rejecting "hype" while at the same time projecting his own, resorting to far-out theories while it suits him (Foreman being poisoned VS Ali; Tyson being a victim of 'roid-rage, etc.)

    At the same time he's looking to excuse Wlad's key loss against Corrie Sanders when no excuse is needed.

    Admin/OP's logical fallacies have been pointed out. He has yet to respond with a proper rebuttal. Quite frankly, there aren't any.

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    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Xydo Kedi]
      #7650 Tommo (2014-10-27th)

      The one key loss, the Sanders loss, was not excused. Wlad got overwhelmed and Sparked out. If you read the article, it states that.

      The point of that article was, that this fight in no way proves that Wladimir has a weak chin. Because not only is Sander's a puncher anyway, but that head anvil would have sparked anybody.

      What's more, Sander's was an extremely unique and dangerous boxer.

      There's never been another 225lb, 6'4" Southpaw with exceptional handspeed, highly aggressive style and cracker punch. Not one. He beat Botha, a top Lennox opponent, several times by KO in Amateur, and Holyfield, Tyson or Lewis never FOUGHT Sander's to know if he would have had any troubles with him either. Judging by the fight Sanders put up against Vitali too, I would judge that Lennox would have had problems.

      Had Sanders been more dedicated to athleticism (stamina was main problem), he could have been a great champion in his own right!

      As for Ali, any objective fan must see that not only is he the most overrated boxer of all time, he was not really even a very good boxer by todays standards at all. What's more, even THEN, his career was largely manufactured and gifted, against shocking opposition.

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  • Jethro's Flute says:
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    [ip2username: Ryto Geji]
    #7699 Jethro's Flute (2014-11-16th)

    http://www.boxing.com/making_mincemeat_in_hamburg.html

    An appreciation of Wlad.

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