Wladimir Klitschko's glass chin -OR- Hahaha, Corrie Sanders was a golfer

WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO IN HIS CAREER has suffered 3 losses.

These RoCoLa losses (against ROss Puritty, COrrie Sanders, LAmon Brewster) are used by haters as THE ultimate proof of Wladimir's bum'ness or as a reason why a status as an "All-Time-Great" has to be DENIED.

Since these 3 losses were KO losses (= Klitschko was KO'ed) haters use them as a proof of the terrible quality of the Klitschko chin (= he cannot take punches).

 

The final analysis on Wladimir Klitschko's glass chin

Before we analyze Wladimir Klitschko's "porcelain chin" let me make some general remarks that apply to any boxer:

  1. Deducting something from 3 losses (of approximately 60 fights) is actually ridiculous. It's equally ridiculous to deduct something from 3 wins (of proximately 60 losses).
  2. Having 50+ real heavyweight fights 200×2 and losing ONLY 3 times is a PROOF (and not a counter-proof) of the quality of Wladimir Klitschko (see tables below). Especially since it's actually ultraheavyweight fights 215×2. Already expect the next generations of boxers getting KO'ed more often since the punches get harder and harder.
  3. Of the 78 heavyweight world champions to date NOBODY had as many fights 200×2 and less losses than Wladimir Klitschko.
  4. Being TKO'ed by hard punchers or by KO'artists (Corrie Sanders has a KO'ratio of 67% and Lamon Brewster has a KO'ratio of 73%) is a very weak argument for a weak chin.

Additionally let me point out the following:

  1. Wladimir Klitschko was never KO'ed. He was TKO'ed but not KO'ed. In other words: The fights always ended with Wladimir standing on his feet.
  2. Wladimir Klitschko has never been TKO'ed by a single punch (unlike Lennox Lewis, for example).
  3. Since the RoCoLa losses are usually brought up by AliFans let me point out here that
    • Clay/Ali has never met a southpaw with such a high KO'ratio like as Corrie Sanders
    • has never met anyone as heavy+powerpunching as Lamon Brewster
    • and has never met anyone as heavy+experienced as Ross Puritty.
    • Clay/Ali in his whole career was never exposed to such boxers like RoCoLa. Instead Muhammad Ali was viciously knocked down by bummy[?] cruiser Henry Cooper 185 lbs (and then was saved merely by the bell and by illegal smelling salts) and by featherfist Joe Frazier.

Any statement that ridicules Klitschko because of his RoCoLa losses hides the above facts.

But, OK, let's now analyze RoCoLa one by one:

 

Wladimir Klitschko vs Ross Puritty – Wlad's corner throws the towel

In December 1998 the Klitschko brothers (Wladimir Klitschko and Vitali Klitschko)  stage a double event: Both of them box on the same night, one after the other, in their home country (Ukraine). Wladimir Klitchko boxes for the WBC International title and Vitaliy Klichko for the EBU title (European Boxing Union).

The audience celebrates their fellow Ukrainians (= the Klitschkos) as sport heroes and they fire up Wladimir Klitschko to deliver a perfect show by a high output and a fast knock out.

Unfortunately for Wladimir Klitschko Ross Puritty is the boxer with probably the hardest chin of all times:

At real[?] heavyweight there are only a handful of candidates for "hardest chin":

However, Chuvalo's median[?] opponent is only 204 lbs, while Ross Puritty's is 227 lbs, thus Chuvalo doesn't even play in the same league.

Chuvalo's main fame-acclaim is that he didn't go down for 2.5 rounds against George Foreman 218 lbs. Thus you could say that Chuvalo's chin is either UNTESTED against heavy power punchers or even OVERRATED in terms of heavyweight. Additionally Chuvalo seems to me to have been knocked down in the first round against Ellis, but was lucky the referee didn't see it as a knockdown.

Ross Puritty on the other hand survived some of the hardest heavyweights who ever lived (Wladimir Klitschko, Vitali Klitschko, Corrie Sanders, Tommy Morrison) for 43 rounds without getting KO'ed.

Additionally Puritty survived some of the most experienced boxers (Frankie Swindell in his 56th fight, Lorenzo Boyd 60th fight) and some of the heaviest opponents (Brian Nielsen 266lbs, Ronnie Smith 268lbs, Calvin Jones 280lbs).

Ross Puritty is the heavyweight with probably the hardest chin of all time

Moreover Ross is a muscle mountain (median weight 250 lbs) with a hard punch (87% of his wins came by KO) but with a terrible defense and with terrible attacking skills. Ross Puritty wins only when his opponents make big mistakes.

And such mistakes were made by Wladimir:

Wladimir's opponents that far were knocked out in round 3 (on average) and he never went more than 8 rounds before. But fired up by the audience Wladimir delivers 11 rounds of high output and eventually overpaces and gasses, gets knocked down several times (energy drained but without actually being hurt) and then Wlad's corner decides to throw the towel (Wlad's trainer runs into the ring) with Wladimir being visibly upset/disappointed about this.

Actually, as you can see from the action just before the trainer ran in, Wladimir eats some heavy punches without going down.

This TKO had nothing whatsoever to do with a soft chin, but had everything to do with OVERPACING and possibly with OVERTRAINING (it was Wladimir's 25th fight in 24 months) and possibly with some illness (if you consider Wladimir's suspicious drop in weight between his last fight and the next).

You can not draw ANY CONCLUSION whatsoever from this fight as how to beat Wladimir Klitschko, except if you have the hardest chin of all time yourself and hope that the corner will stop the fight.

 

Wladimir Klitschko vs Lamon Brewster – A KO during the break

The fight against Lamon Brewster will be noted in the history books as one of the most bizarre events of world championships.

Wladimir Klitschko enters the ring already looking somewhat exhausted. His then-trainer Sdunek will later say that there was something wrong already in the locker room and that Wlad's body couldn't warm-up properly.

Throughout the whole fight Lamon Brewster receives a completely one-sided bashing and gets knocked down for the first time in his career (he gets knocked down twice actually but the first KD is ruled a push-down). The HBO commentators call it "A monstrous beating".

And yet: From the 1st round to the 5th Klitschko gets visibly more and more drained by the minute without even being hit properly once by Lamon Brewster. The commentators notice that he looks tired in the 2nd(!) round already.

And while Wladimir Klitschko is still using the world championship as a better sparring session he finally loses all his power, lets his arms hang down, hunchbacks and shows hardly any reflexes. In this state Brewster finally manages to connect for the first time with a few (not too powerful) shots.

During the break (= after the 5th round) Wladimir is so powerless that he stumbles over the foot of the referee, barely gets up, and the referee decides to stop the fight.

This is the only fight I know which was stopped while the boxer is WALKING TO HIS CORNER DURING THE BREAK without having been knocked down to the canvas even once.

Wlad plops onto his seat, the ring doctor notes shifted pupils. Wladimir is rushed to the hospital where elevated blood sugar levels are diagnosed. Vitali Klitschko will mention in a TV interview that Wlad was close to a hyperglycemic coma.

Wlad puts everyone of his team on a lie detector (including the cutman and even his own co-trainer Fritz Sdunek).

His lawyer (Judd Burstein) sends a letter to senator John McCain (the later presidential candidate) and asks for an official investigation of the US justice department.

"Incredibly, though, all of the specimens, with the exception of one milliliter of urine (too small an amount to permit meaningful testing), had been destroyed by UMC and Quest. To date, no rational explanation has been presented for this failure to deliver the specimens which UMC and Quest had in their possession at the time Mr. Klitschko requested that they be transferred to Dr. Voy. Of course, there are a number of possible explanations, some innocent, for what occurred. However, one of those possible explanations – and an eminently reasonable one – is that those specimens were destroyed in order to hide the truth of what happened to Mr. Klitschko."

(excerpt from Judd Burstein's letter)

 

And the outcome? Nothing.

The freakish collapse remains unexplained. And that's why until this very day the conspiracy theory says that he was poisoned. Wladimir Klitschko himself never blamed anybody specific, he preferred to not sound like a sore loser looking for excuses:

"I have thought long and hard about requesting an investigation because I am concerned that the public, and particularly my fans, will see me as making excuses instead of taking responsibility for a loss. That is not my intention. I simply want to know the truth, and I have not yet been given adequate answers to the many questions I rightfully have."

(Wladimir Klitschko)

 

The type of gassing that you see in the Puritty fight is nothing special. Wlad out-punched himself and he looks like it. You see it all the time at heavyweight boxing and nobody suspects anything strange about it. But the type of collapsing you see in the Brewster fight is unprecedented. Even Emmanuel Stewart (trainer of Wladimir Klitschko) states

"Wladimir was in perfect shape for the bout. In all of my years as a trainer, I have never seen anything like this. I know when a fighter is hurt from an opponent’s punches. In this case, there was something else causing Wladimir’s problems."

 

Now, whatever the truth may be: The big money never materialized for Lamon Brewster. It seems that boxing fans knew that something was strange about his win.

 

Don King now controls all belts and wants to keep it that way

In the same year (2004) Vitali Klitschko retires and Don King now controls the 4 major belts:

  • Hasim Rahman (WBC)
  • John Ruiz (WBA)
  • Chris Byrd (IBF)
  • Lamon Brewster (WBO).

In other words: It was clear that the belts wouldn't be unified for a looong time since Don King seems to do EVERYTHING to have as many champs as possible. And they aren't unified until this very day (2011).

 

Roy Jones Jr's comments mark the end as we knew him

Aditionally Roy Jones Jr (who was the HBO co-commentator) got punished for his comments ("It's not so much of Wladimir's chin as it is of his heart, though. He's not the dog that can fight from the bottom"):

In his next fight (1 month later) Roy Jones Jr had to eat his own words by being brutally KO'ed in round #2 by Antonio Tarver (for the first time in his career).

6 more losses followed, including 3 more KO'losses.

Roy Jones Jr's comments on Wladimir Klitschko were the end of Roy Jones as we knew him.

 

Conclusion on Brewster vs Klitschko

Conclude whatever you want from Brewster/Puritty vs Wladimir Klitschko, but always remember

  • that a chin issue is the least likely explanation
  • that Wladimir Klitschko avenged his loss against Brewster very easily
  • that any other (somewhat strong) fighter who would have been there in the ring (instead of Ross Puritty or Lamon Brewster) would have KO'ed Wladimir Klitschko, too, given his exhausted state
  • that Klitschko-vs-Brewster remains a freak ending. Wlad-vs-Puritty was normal gassing, Wlad-vs-Brewster was unprecedented COLLAPSING.

 

If you want you _CAN_ draw conclusions about Wlad's stamina or his endurance or undertraining or fitness (or even about poisoning or "juicing going wrong"). But you can not draw conclusions about Wlad's chin from Klitschko vs Brewster because Wlad not once was knocked down to the canvas. That night Wlad had a "weak body" not a "weak chin".

 

Wladimir Klitschko vs Corrie Sanders – Dr. Steelhammer vs Mr. Anvil

Now we come to Corrie Sanders.

The loss against Corrie Sanders is "THE MOSTEST PROOF" of Wladimir's inability to take punches ("Wladimir Chinov Glasov", "King without a jaw", "Failed the chin-check") or of Wladimir's lack of greatness.

For hater's (usually consisting of AliFans or Lennox Lewis fans) Corrie Sanders is the hero who exposed the truth about Wladimir Klitschko's terrible glass chin. Sanders is the proof of how Wlad would lose against the good old American heavyweights (except that the haters ignore that Corrie Sanders is a South African).

Whatever positive statement one may state about Wladimir ("high KO'ratio", "many world title wins", "one of the youngest world champions" etc) haters LOVE to bring up Corrie Sanders as a counter proof. I mentioned this already at Of Klitards and CLAYtons. This is the most retarded boxing blog ever and I won't bother to read it! ("Typical Behavior: Corrie Sanders anyone?")

Thus it may come as a big surprise to many that Corrie Sanders did not win by exposing Wladimir's chin.

When you re-watch the first knockdown in slow-motion then you notice that it was a vicious anvil'ing headbutt that initiated the demise: Southpaw Sanders hit Klitschko with his strong left hand and Klitschko's head snapped against Corrie's head.

In other words: Corrie Sanders' head was like an anvil on one side while his fist was sledgehammering on the other side. It was  "like a kick against a wall" instead of merely "like a kick".

The complete sequence went like this:

  1. Sanders hits Wladimir with a left… Wladimir head snaps down.
  2. Wladimir moves his head up and crashes against Sanders' head (headbutt #1)
  3. Sanders connects with a right hook and uses his head as anvil (headbutt #2, Anvil Left)
  4. Sanders connects with a left hook and uses his head as anvil again (headbutt #3, Anvil Right) causing a cut (blood) above the left eye of Klitschko.

Wladimir never recovered from the The Anvil in such a short sequence and was TKO'ed in the next round. Obviously Wladimir's and Sanders' size matched perfectly for anvil'ing.

Directly after the The Anvil Klitschko gets up and you can see the blood cut from the headbutt:

All in all I counted 7 or 8 headbutts and here you see the effects of them the very next day: Cut above the left eye of Klitschko and both eyes blueish/swollen:

THIS IS NO EXCUSE and I do not claim that Sanders did anything purposefully illegal or that Klitschko had no fault. But this is an article about the _CHIN_ of Wladimir Klitschko thus I want to bring into view that the Sanders TKO is far from a conclusive chin weakness.

 

Let me also point out that the Sanders fight was not only a taking-an-opponent-too-light issue (prior to the bout Wladimir had a quarrel with Vitali about lack of attitude) but also a trainer fiasco. Fritz Sdunek (the then-trainer of Wladimir Klitschko) was speechless during the break, had no clue what to do next and didn't say anything coherent about how to survive the next round. Sdunek's shock hints at a preparation failure because he obviously completely underestimated/misjudged Corrie Sanders.

Wladimir Klitschko dropped Sdunek pretty fast after the fight, switched to trainer Freddie Roach and then to trainer Emmanuel Steward shortly afterwards.

 

Wladimir Klitschko on Corrie Sanders and Lamon Brewster

"I only fell in love with boxing after those two fights I lost against Brewster and Sanders… It was very motivational.

If I could change those things I wouldn't. Because I would never be the ­person I am today, in or out of the ring, if I hadn't suffered those two losses."


Wladimir Klitschko

 

"I'm thankful to Corrie Sanders that he gave me that lesson, which I'm caring through the years."

Wladimir Klitschko (2013)

 

Something similar from Lennox Lewis about his two KO'losses:

"When I look back at my losses I could say that if I never lost then I wouldn't be as great as I am today… It kind of gives you a humbling feeling…"

Lennox Lewis

 

The "China Chin Myth" and how it makes Wladimir smile

The 3 RoCoLa fights are such bad indicators for a "weak chin" that

Every time someone mention the "glass chin" myth he does Klitschko a favor

Why?

Because the "suspect chin legend" completely deludes the opponents and puts them on the wrong track.

It obscures the view on Wladimir's REAL weaknesses (should there be any) and concentrates on a rather non-existing weakness ("chin bait") which (even if it existed) could be only exploited under unlikely circumstances.

Thus, opponents, if you read this: Do Wlad a favor and go after his "mellow mandibula" and "crystal cranium".

 

Steel Hammer vs Steel Chin

Moreover emphasizing "a delicate chin" hides an important fact: The RoCoLa opponents themselves had hard chins. Ross Puritty (possibly the hardest chin in heavyweight history), Corrie Sanders (very hard chinned), Lamon Brewster (also hard chinned). Their strong chins (and not Wladimir's supposedly weak chin) may be the very reason why they won against Wlad.

The usual approach "How to beat Wlad" is to shout "Touch his chin! Expose his chin!" whereas the best "strategy" may be to have a rock iron chin yourself and try something else.

The "fragile jaw fairy-tale" is also accompanied by another legend: "You cannot train chin". Not only that you CAN train chin, Wlad DOES train chin like any other professional boxer.

Since two of his 3 KO'losses had very little to do with chin but had a lot of to do with stamina, the verdict "Wlad cannot train chin" should actually be converted to "Wlad can train stamina", which he does, by the way. Obviously.

 

So why didn't Wladimir Klitschko rematch Corrie Sanders?

This was topic at Why the Klitschkos will never be ATGs (All Time Greats).

 

Hmm, maybe Wladimir's chin is good or even very good

  1. It may sound very strange but the Lamon Brewster fight actually shows how GOOD Wladimir's chin is, because you can see how an utterly energy-drained Vladimir gets hit by everything Brewster (who has a comparable KO'ratio like Mike Tyson) has in his arsenal yet Wladimir doesn't seem to be affected by the punches at all: He doesn't wobble, his eyes are still there, he doesn't do the funny dance etc… Completely different to his fight with Corrie Sanders where he looked HURT by the punches both face-wise and leg-wise.
  2. Wladimir Klitschko has never been down in his Amateur career (134-6).
  3. In the fight against Chagaev Chagaev didn't hear the end-of-the-round bell (7th round) and managed to hit Klitschko (who already lowered his defense) with a full blast punch ("His best punch of the fight") and Klitschko hardly felt it.
  4. Also in the fight against Tony Thompson Tony managed to hit him several times without any effect.

 

But to be clear:
I do _NOT_ claim that Wlad's chin is good.
The only statement I make is that his chin is a question mark.

The chin of Wladimir COULD be weak indeed,
but his RoCoLa losses are too inconclusive to make a definite statement.

 

 

How does Wladimir Klitschko's loss compare to losses of other champs?

Let us compare Wlad's first loss (Ross Puritty) to the first loss of other champs.

First let's check how many real heavyweight fights (both opponents 200+ lbs) it took to inflict the first loss. Here is a table that compares Clay/Ali, Lewis and Klitschko and their FLOPs (First LOss OPponents): Joe Frazier, Oliver McCall and Ross Puritty.

nameHow many fights (200×2) until first loss?Weight selfWeight of FLOPHeight of FLOPReal heavyweight record (200×2) of FLOP at time of boutFair KO'Ratio of FLOP (in 200×2 fights)
·Wladimir Klitschko
25
225 lbs
249 lbs
6'3''
38 fights (24-13-1)
Ross Puritty)
50%
·Muhammad Ali
10
215 lbs
205 lbs
5'11''
9 fights (9-0)
Joe Frazier)
44%
·Lennox Lewis
24
238 lbs
231 lbs
6'2''
28 fights (23-5)
Oliver McCall)
56%
·Joe Louis
2
198 lbs
192 lbs
6'1''
0 fights (0-0)
Max Schmeling)
0%

Fistic Statistic [#478.1]

You CAN CLAIM that Wladimir Klitschko's first loss was inflicted by a bum (24-13). But you can also claim that Ross Puritty was the MOST EXPERIENCED, TALLEST, HEAVIEST, OUTWEIGHEST flop compared to Lewis', Ali's and Louis' flops. Add to it that Ali's flop (Joe Frazier) was handicapped (he was blind on his left eye) and it puts things even more into the correct perspective.

The second loss opponent of Wladimir Klitschko was Corrie Sanders.
Sanders was Klitschko's 42nd fight. Clay/Ali and Louis didn't even have so many real heavyweight fights, thus the claim "Ali wouldn't have lost against Sanders" is double misleading: First of all Clay/Ali had only 32 real heavyweight fights (Ali's 200×2 record is 28-4) and second of all Clay/Ali never faced any southpaw with such a good record and such a high KO'Ratio as Corrie Sanders.

 

How many heavyweight world champs managed to have a 25-0 record?

It's quite something different to stay unbeaten in 25 featherweight fights or in 25 ultraheavyweight fights 215×2. Bummy featherweights won't knock you out. Bummy superheavyweights 200 lbs or ultraheavyweights 215 lbs are far more dangerous.

There have been only 49 champs with 25 real heavyweight fights (plus Wladimir).

Let's check how many of these 49 champs managed to stay unbeaten for 25 real heavyweight fights (= performed better than Wladimir Klitschko who accumulated a record of 24-0):

 

Flops of other champs in real heavyweight fights

NameTotal fights (200×2)FLOP in fight no (200×2)
·Brian Nielsen
66
50
·Hasim Rahman
57
28
·Henry Akinwande
53
32
·Larry Holmes
65
40
·Mike Tyson
53
33
·Nikolay Valuev
51
45
·Riddick Bowe
44
34
·Ruslan Chagaev
28
26
·Tony Tucker
61
31
·Vitali Klitschko
43
28
·Wladimir Klitschko
58
25
·Chris Byrd
41
23
·Evander Holyfield
37
11
·Frank Bruno
40
17
·George Foreman
64
24
·John Ruiz
37
3
·Ken Norton
37
19
·Muhammad Ali
32
10
·Primo Carnera
72
4
·Sonny Liston
26
14
·David Haye
9
-
·Ezzard Charles
1
-
·Jack Dempsey
1
-
·Jack Johnson
15
5
·Joe Frazier
18
12
·Joe Louis
12
-
·Max Schmeling
0
-
·Rocky Marciano
0
-
·Roy Jones Jr
0
-
·Tommy Morrison
47
24

Fistic Statistic [#478.2]

As you see out of 78 champs only 10 (TEN!) managed to reach a record of 25-0 in 200×2 fights.

This gets even clearer when you only analyze ultraheavyweight champs 215×2. Wladimir Klitschko was beaten in his 21st ultraheavyweight fight. There have been only 6 (SIX) champs who managed to stay being unbeaten longer:

Brian Nielsen, Hasim Rahman, Nikolay Valuev, Riddick Bowe, Samuel Peter, Vitali Klitschko.

 

Flops of other champs against heavier-than-self opponents

Another major reason why losses happen is "Being out-weighed".

Klitschko was beaten in his 16th being-outweighed fight. Of the 78 world champions only 30 managed to have 16 being-outweighed real heavyweight fights. And of the 30 only 6 managed to have a better record than Vladimir Klitschko.

Let's check after how many being-outweighed fights the first loss occurred.

namefights against heavier-than-self opponents (200×2)First loss in being-outweighed fight no (200×2)
·Brian Nielsen5-
·Bruce Seldon2511
·Chris Byrd3418
·Evander Holyfield3211
·George Foreman8-
·Herbie Hide2513
·Jack Dempsey1-
·Jack Johnson64
·Jack Sharkey32
·Joe Frazier1310
·Joe Louis9-
·Ken Norton1914
·Larry Holmes3129
·Lennox Lewis10-
·Max Schmeling0-
·Mike Tyson2713
·Muhammad Ali11-
·Ruslan Chagaev1918
·Shannon Briggs2417
·Siarhei Liakhovich1110
·Sonny Liston7-
·Sultan Ibragimov1919
·Tim Witherspoon3018
·Tommy Morrison2211
·Tony Tucker26-
·Vitali Klitschko128
·Wladimir Klitschko2516

Fistic Statistic [#478.4]

 

How many losses did other champs have?

When you analyze the records of the other 77 world champions then ONLY 15 have less losses than Klitschko, of which only 1 (Gene Tunney) have as many fights as Wladimir.

But Gene Tunney in his entire career had not one single real heavyweight fight 200×2, thus he is out of the picture…

…hence Wladimir Klitschko is the champion
with the best WinLoss record of all time
based on real heavyweight fights 200×2

 

How many losses against bums did other champs have?

MOST of other heavyweight world champions did have losses against bums[?]. This includes Muhammad Ali, Ray Mercer, George Foreman, Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, Jack Dempsey, Tim Witherspoon, Max Schmeling, Jersey Joe Walcott, Jack Johnson and Ezzard Charles.

Champions with losses to bums are nothing special.

 

Hahaha, Wladimir Klitschko was KO'ed by Corrie Sanders – a golfer and part-time boxer

Corrie Sanders was not only a professional boxer but also a very good golfer.

When Wladimir haters want to point out how bad Klitschko is they never fail to mention that Corrie Sanders was a golfer!

Sometimes they sensationalize it a bit more by spin doctoring "Wlad got schooled by a retired amateur golfer" (= Corrie gave up golf for pro boxing).

Guess, what?

Wladimir is also an amateur golfer… and a kite-surfer.

But what has being a golfer to do with anything?

It's utterly irrelevant WHAT ELSE a boxer does when he doesn't box.

That Sanders was also a golfer doesn't disprove any of his qualities as a boxer.

Who cares what else Joe Frazier or Sonny Liston did for their living or in their spare-time?

Sonny Liston could have been a cotton candy producer and Muhammad Ali a professional sanitary napkin tester and it would be irrelevant for their boxing record. If Sanders is good in the ring he's good in the ring.

Additionally Corrie Sanders piled up a record of 46 professional fights (42-4). Therefore just by this record alone he plays in the top ranks of heavyweight pro boxers. Of course I do not claim that his record is stellar. But you will not find many boxers at heavyweight with so many fights on their record. Therefore calling him "a golfer" is nonsense on many levels.

Moreover we know how Sanders gave Vitali Klitschko (and almost any opponent Sanders faced) a lot of smack, thus the half-true conclusion (= the haters' conclusion) is "Wlad was beaten by a golfer who boxed" and instead the correct conclusion is "Sanders is an exceptional sportsman who is excellent in the fields of golf AND boxing".

See also Wladimir Klitschko sucks because he didn't avenge his losses

 

A variation is "Corrie Sanders didn't even train properly (based on the fact that Corrie Sanders is somewhat chubby) ("If a part-time golfer can beat Wladimir then so could all the greats of the past").

And again the correct conclusion is "Corrie Sanders is an excellent YET POSSIBLY LAZY boxer. And would he have trained properly then maybe he could have ruled the heavyweight division".

Let us also not forget that Corrie Sanders is in the toplist of heaviest hitting southpaws of all time ("KO'rrie") (I excluded those with less than 20 wins). There are only a few other southpaw heavyweights who have a similar high KO'ratio like Sanders:

Southpaw boxersKO'ratiocomment
Tye Fields82%never boxed for a world title
Juan Carlos Gomez78%defeated by Vitali Klitschko
Cody Koch78%defeated by Wladimir Klitschko
Joey Abell76%never boxed for a world title
Franco de Piccoli71%1960ies, never boxed for a world title
Sultan Ibragimov71%defeated by Wladimir Klitschko
China Smith70%never boxed for a world title
Michael Moorer70%KO'Ratio in heavyweight fights: 50%
Derek Brian68%never boxed for a world title
Corrie Sanders67%boxed twice for a world title, defeated by Vitali Klitschko

Fistic Statistic [#478.5]

In other words: The Klitschkos fought the strongest available southpaws who ever lived. That Wlad got punished once is a side-effect of fighting so many of them.

The only times when Muhammad Ali fought a southpaw was

  • Karl Mildenberger 195 lbs at fight (median[?] fight weight 190 lbs) = a cruiser opponent
  • Richard Dunn 206.5 lbs at fight = a bummy[?] 33-12 chinachin'ed featherfist (30% KO'ratio)

In other words: Muhammad Ali has never faced any southpaw as strong and experienced and successful as Corrie Sanders.

Lennox Lewis ducked all good southpaws of his era (= he fought none) as did Mike Tyson.

In fact: No other world champion has faced as many (6) non-bummy southpaws 200+ lbs as Wladimir Klitschko. The runner-ups are Vitali Klitschko (3) and Evan Fields (3).

Muhammad Ali faced 0, Lennox Lewis faced 0, Mike Tyson 0.

 

"Wlad was floored more times than other greats thus he has a flaw jaw"

First of all let me remind the reader that being knocked down merely deducts 1 point on the scorecards. It has no other meaning than that. In nearly all rounds where Wlad has been knocked down I saw Wladimir as the winner despite of the knockdown.

Second of all, please stop reading for 5 seconds and actually think about the statement "Wladimir Klitschko is a multiple beltholder at ULTRAHEAVYWEIGHT 225+ for years and has a glass jaw". This is so ridiculous if you think about it. NOBODY IN THE WORLD could be ultraheavyweight world champion with a lack of chin.

This is IMPOSSIBLE. He would be exposed within his first few fights, even already at amateurs. This topic should be closed right away actually.

Anyway.

Aside from the 3 RoCoLa losses Wlad WON the fights where he was knocked down: vs Sam Peter (Wlad won that fight), vs Davaryl Williamson (Wlad won that fight), vs Steve Pannell (Wlad won that fight).

In fact he performed so convincingly that NO ONE wants to see a rematch against ·Davaryl Williamson or ·Steve Pannell. The knock downs in the Williamson and Pannell fights are so irrelevant that haters and fans may read it here for the first time that they actually happened.

Whatever you might think about his knockdowns and knockouts, in the meanwhile Wlad gave a rematch to Sam Peter and to Lamon Brewster. The rematches were very one-sided despite Sam Peter being in the best shape of his life. It was visible (even for the haters) how much Wlad improved from the first fight against Peter, let alone from Brewster, Sanders or Puritty.

And if you ACTUALLY WATCH the knockdowns (instead of merely gleeing "Haha, he was knocked down" like haters do) then you see that the knockdowns are either rabbit punches (= illegal punches to the back of the head) or simply OOB situations (= out-of-balance). Wlad gets up within seconds after the knockdown, is not groggy and instead continues to beat the cr*p out of his opponent for the rest of the fight.

Again, I do not claim that Wlad had no fault. It may VERY WELL BE that it was 100% Wlad's fault to get into OOP situations (= out of position = bad position where the opponent might hit you illegally or bring you out of balance), but gain, this is an article about Wlad's chin and there is a huge difference between a proper knockdown and an "unbalanced fall".

 

Summary

  • Every heavyweight world champion experienced losses (except Rocky Marciano)
  • Only a handful of other champs have less losses than Wladimir Klitschko and this is because they faced less opposition (e.g. Lennox Lewis) or far lighter opposition (e.g. Gene Tunney).
  • When you analyze how many fights it took to meet the first FLOP (First Loss Opponent) then it turns out that Waldimir Klitschko managed to perform better than most of other champions, including Ali, Lennox, Evander Holyfield and many others.
  • The RoCoLa losses of Klitschko are INCONCLUSIVE. It's highly unlikely that a "glass chin" is the reason for the RoCoLa losses. From the losses you can not deduct a master plan how to beat Wladimir Klitschko.
  • If you want to deduct a strategy how to beat Wladimir Klitschko then (based on his excellent record and on the RoCoLa opponents) it would be:
    1) Have a granite chin yourself and
    2) Have a rocket punch.
    But unfortunately this is merely a general strategy (that is good against any opponent) thus you have no ADDITIONAL SPECIFIC clues as how to beat Wladimir Klitschko aside from this general strategy.
  • Each of the RoCoLa losses is DIFFERENT. A SINGLE reason (that would explain them all) does not exist.
  • You can not deduct from the RoCoLa losses what chances other champions would have against Wladimir. For example Brewster, Sanders and Puritty are 3 to 5 punch classes above Ali and 1-2 punch classes above Larry Holmes and besides 1) Brewster is avenged 2) Sanders is a southpaw and 3) Ross was 40 lbs heavier than prime Ali.
  • Since the losses are already several years ago it means that IF YOU STILL INSIST to deduct weaknesses of Wlad then it would be only weaknesses that existed many years ago. In other words your statement would have to be as follows: "Pre-Sanders Wlad is MAYBE beatable by Muhammad Ali. Post-Brewster Wlad is a different breed of animal."
  • Contrary to what haters may claim Klitschko's 3 losses came against EXCEPTIONAL fighters:
    • Ross Puritty has probably the hardest chin of all boxing history (even tops George Chuvalo)
    • Corrie Sanders is in the top10 of hardest punching southpaws of all time, also with a rock-solid chin
    • Lamon Brewster has one of the highest KO'Ratios of all times.

 

Let me also add something that haters don't like to hear:

Wladimir Klitschko is now so dominant BECAUSE OF his losses.
He said…
Thank you, Ross! Thank you Corrie! Thank you, Lamon!
…and went back to school and improved visibly with every loss.
His losses are part of the reason why he is a top boxer now.

-and-

You have to allow boxers to LEARN.
There is something called PROGRESS.
You have to have a tolerance for PROCESSES.

-and-

Far more impressive than his losses
is his spirit to continue!

 

Incredibly, though, all of the specimens, with the exception of one milliliter of urine (too small an amount to permit meaningful testing), had been destroyed by UMC and Quest. To date, no rational explanation has been presented for this failure to deliver the specimens which UMC and Quest had in their possession at the time Mr. Klitschko requested that they be transferred to Dr. Voy. Of course, there are a number of possible explanations, some innocent, for what occurred. However, one of those possible explanations – and an eminently reasonable one – is that those specimens were destroyed in order to hide the truth of what happened to Mr. Klitschko.
Wladimir Klitschko's glass chin -OR- Hahaha, Corrie Sanders was a golfer, 4.4 out of 5 based on 32 ratings
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Comments (62)

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Sowe Divu]
    #144 Honza (2011-04-18th)

    You are really disgrace. i hate when somebody starts to bash old boxers. Did you see comeback of old George foreman? You are really assh*le. Pure Klitschko fan

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #199 Admin (2011-04-28th)

      You can not deduct from this article whether I am a Klitschko fan or not. I pre-answered this already at [post=932]

      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5701 Tommo (2013-03-27th)

        Admin=Klitschko's BIGGEST fan of all time in entire world. Deduced from this site from someone who mostly agrees with you. Better off just admitting that and remaining objective. :)

    • shellbsd23 says:
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      [ip2username: Lapy Voje]
      #3456 shellbsd23 (2011-12-21st)

      Well, he has a good point. Everytime Foreman faced a real contender for the title (Morrison, Briggs, Holyfield) he lost.

      During his comeback he beat a few bums, a few B-rated fighters, so I don't see what you see Honza.. but to me George is one of the great champs as well, but clearly inferior to the Klitschko's style wise. Of course, he would always have a punchers chance.

      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5702 Tommo (2013-03-27th)

        Achievement wise, big George is one of the greatest boxers of all time. But h2h he'd not be too much trouble today. He was the only boxer from the 70s era that was competitive in the 90s at all and still would be, prime or old version today. Just not at the top contender level, except by punchers chance as stated which is how he won that second title.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Sowe Divu]
    #145 Honza (2011-04-18th)

    You called Joe Frazier a featherfist? You are really a moron. Go f*ck yourself :evil:

    • Admin says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #198 Admin (2011-04-28th)

      Of all heavyweight world champions Joe Frazier is BOTTOM #8 most featherfisted. Read more at [post=1094] and at [post=1609]

      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5703 Tommo (2013-03-27th)

        I don't see how anybody could claim that Frazier was a puncher even before this site. When my missus seen some of his fights she could not believe that someone who looked and hit like that could even be a boxer let alone a HW champion.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Gapy Xoze]
    #375 Honza (2011-06-03rd)

    You are such a f*cking Ali hater that I can not stand that. You will always mentioned Cooper fight even that you do not know what hapenned during that break. Its just a legend but you will always come up with that. But of course you are right. Wladimir Klitschko is fantastic boxer with great chin and brave heart who only ran like little girl during fight with Ibragimov. Everytime Ibragimov tryed to punch Wlad he ran away.Also that punch from Chagaev surprised Wlad very well and it did not look like he took that with no problem. But you will always say you own perspective. Stop talking sh*t about Ali fans because I have enough of this.

    • shellbsd23 says:
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      [ip2username: Lapy Voje]
      #3457 shellbsd23 (2011-12-21st)

      lol, didn't Ali run in all his fights? (since that is his style)

      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5704 Tommo (2013-03-27th)

        Ali should have been in the Tour de France because he spent so much time "on the bike" haha

        • Tommo says:
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          [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
          #5758 Tommo (2013-03-29th)

          Or as a Judoka because he spent an almost equal time in the clinch. In fact you might say his pedalling and his wrestling experience is more extensive than his boxing lol ;)

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Jylo Geli]
    #386 Honza (2011-06-06th)

    You know that Eddie Chambers is actually cruiser? He has only 209 lbs.

    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5705 Tommo (2013-03-27th)

      which is heavy. Chambers could have gone down to cruiser and been very dominant there. Admin sometimes confuses cruiser with being sub 215 but until that is established it must still be regarded as sub 200.

  • Anonymous says:
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    [ip2username: Beji Kuza]
    #482 (2011-07-02nd)

    Wlad does not have the heart! Jab-Jab-Jab, and maybe jab.. is not a freakin fighther! He'll be broken into retirement tonight. Hope he goes down with style, that means hit the canvas, and not like a wuzz.

    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5706 Tommo (2013-03-27th)

      He certainly has a brain. Ali had heart. If he ever had a brain, it was certainly punched out of him lol.

  • Anonymous says:
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    [ip2username: Doze Didu]
    #483 (2011-07-03rd)

    Klitschko fan, through and through. Klitschko meeting Fraizer in the ring would be the end of him. He's been knocked down 10 times. Yet he all but finished Ali who has only been knocked down 4 times by heavier hitters and bigger guys than him.
    Klitschko's chin is horrible, horrific, it's a button you press and he goes down. Self destruct button. That's the true explanation for his boring, jab style. An In fighter like fraizer naturally has an advantage over an out fighter like Klitbot., cos once he get's in – and he can – bye bye Klitschko

    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5707 Tommo (2013-03-27th)

      Can you imaging Frazier getting inside Wlad really? This fight would be biggest mismatch ever and cause a riot. The opening bell would sound, Wlad would RUN over to Frazier and IMMEDIATELY KO him, nothing could be surer and nothing could stop him. Wlad would not employ any safety tactics or attrition strategy against Joe because he would know that he faced absolutely NO resistance whatsoever. Come on man be serious!

  • bcs says:
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    [ip2username: Bymo Wedi]
    #494 bcs (2011-07-05th)

    Very interesting analysis. I'm a Corrie Sanders fan, and feel you cannot deduce anything about the state of a boxer's chin simply because Sanders knocked them out. The man had dynamite in his fists, and generally anything he touched stayed down. His biggest weakness was indeed (as you pointed out) his attitude to training … not at all at the level a top boxer should train at. He was so used to blasting opponents out in the early rounds that perhaps he felt training for a long fight was a waste of his time. What a pity, I believe that if he had trained seriously, he could have been one of the greats.

    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5708 Tommo (2013-03-27th)

      I see nothing about Sanders that would exclude him from being a top contender had he been more dedicated, agreed. :)

  • Anonymous says:
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    [ip2username: Sady Wome]
    #3767 (2012-02-15th)

    I read a few of your articles and you cannot possibly say you are not biased towards the Klitschko brothers. I've never seen such a mountain of excuses to defend Wlad's losses, none of that is "objective". You're only being objective when it suits you. Puritty was a mountain of muscles? Wladimir was tired before the fight? The punches weren't hurting him? You're quick to bash old school boxers and you'd jump at the opportunity to put down Ali if one of his fights was a mirror of what happened between Wlad and Puritty. You would say Ali had bad conditonning and that he was exposed, you'd be all over the fight saying it proves he has a glass jaw. When it happens to your loverboy, of course not, Wlad lost because of himself, not because of the other boxer, he's too good for that. I was an avid fan of your blog and I still respect your opinion, but your blog is heavily biased and please, stop hiding the truth saying you're not a fanboy, you obviously are.

    The irony is that you're using Ali's loss to a 185lbs boxer as a proof he had a weak chin, yet you defend Klitschko's losses. Good day to you. I do hope you one day really make blog with an objective view on heavyweight boxing.

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #3769 Admin (2012-02-16th)
      I read a few of your articles and you cannot possibly say you are not biased towards the Klitschko brothers.

      I am not. Had I started this blog during Lennox' reign I would have defended Lennox against AliFants who claimed that Ali was so much superior.

      you defend Klitschko's losses. Good day to you. I do hope you one day really make blog with an objective view on heavyweight boxing.

      I don't defend Klitschko's losses AT ALL.

      Wlad Klitschko lost because his own mistakes and his own fault.

      Wlad lost against Puritty because his own fault as Vitali lost against Byrd because of his own fault.

      The point of this article is not to find excuses but to demonstrate that his losses ARE FAR FROM CONCLUSIVE CHIN ISSUES.

      Wlad might have a weak chin or not. But how strong his chin is can not be seen from these 3 losses and that is the whole point of this article.

      I also disagree with the statement that Vitali Klitschko has an iron chin. His chin has been tagged way to little to make such a statement. I know that he had good chin moments, but they were to rare to be conclusive.

      If David Haye would be the champ, then I equally would defend Haye against all "weak chin claimers", because Haye's loss has not been a chin issue.

      The irony is that you're using Ali's loss to a 185lbs boxer as a proof he had a weak chin, yet

      That is again an important point: I do not claim that Ali had a weak chin, I just wanted to point out how AliFants deliberately ignore facts (= that Ali was KDed and TKOed)

      You're quick to bash old school boxers and you'd jump at the opportunity to put down Ali if one of his fights was a mirror of what happened between Wlad and Puritty.

      Yeah, except that Puritty was 64lbs heavier than Henry Cooper and was outweighing Wlad, while Ali was outweighing Cooper by 16lbs.

      You would say Ali had bad conditonning and that he was exposed, you'd be all over the fight saying it proves he has a glass jaw.

      I don't use terms like glass jaw. I use the term "china chinned" which (like "bum") follows a mathematical definition
      [post=341]

      • Anonymous says:
        flag
        [ip2username: Sady Wome]
        #3770 (2012-02-18th)

        Admin: I am not. Had I started this blog during Lennox' reign I would have defended Lennox against AliFants who claimed that Ali was so much superior.

        Are you being serious? At least stop being such a hypocrite. All your articles SCREAM Klitschko bias. That point doesn't prove you're not biased towards Wlad, it just mean you would have been biased towards Lewis had you started watching boxing when he was on top. Hell, at least be honest about it. I think the Klitschko brothers are some of the greatest to ever live but not nearly as grand as you make them out to be.

        "Klitschko lost because of his own mistakes". Really? You'd be the first one to jump on the throat of anybody saying X boxer lost because of his own mistakes. That's not an objective view at all and too bad for you, you don't have stats to prove otherwise. My problem isn't with your point of view or argument, my problem is your obvious bias and you have the nerves to deny it. How about I make a case for Ali losing 5x and try to twist the fight to say he lost not because of the talent and adversity he was facing but because he lost because of himself. You'd probably call me a Alifant and say he lost because he sucked and was overrated.

        Wlad has a weak chin and it's pretty damn obvious from these losses. He's not the type to eat good punches often, but when he eats them, he eats them good. Good for him he has a lot of talent to dodge punches rather than taking them head on, otherwise he'd permanently look like Vitali after Lewis disfigured him.

        Admin: Yeah, except that Puritty was 64lbs heavier than Henry Cooper and was outweighing Wlad, while Ali was outweighing Cooper by 16lbs.

        Yeah and except Ali still schooled Cooper. From what you said I thought he had lost, then I checked his boxing record and he actually beat Cooper. Being put down on your ass does not mean being KO'ed. Knocked down=/=knocked out.

        Admin: I don't use terms like glass jaw. I use the term "china chinned" which (like "bum") follows a mathematical definition

        Doesn't matter. You have "glass chin" in the title of your article. Hardly anything in your article was objective. All I've seen is a pile of excuses from Wlad obviously being tired before fights to fighting mountains of muscles.

        You have many good articles but this one is by far the weakest one you've written. Obviously you're not too good at making excuses when you don't have your math tables to back you up. Enjoy Klitschko while he lasts, he might not last much longer with a chin like that.

        • Admin says:
          flag
          [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
          #3771 Admin (2012-02-18th)
          You have many good articles but this one is by far the weakest one you've written. Obviously you're not too good at making excuses when you don't have your math tables to back you up. Enjoy Klitschko while he lasts, he might not last much longer with a chin like that.

          Exactly what people have been saying since Corrie Sanders "He might not last". My article explains why he lasted: Because neither of the 3 TKOs has been a chin issue.

          Doesn't matter. You have "glass chin" in the title of your article.

          1) That title is a statement from others not from me, just as "Hahaha, Corrie Sanders was a golfer" is not a statement from me.
          2) That term is for search engines since this is the most frequent ones when people search for articles about Wlad's chin.

          That's not an objective view at all and too bad for you, you don't have stats to prove otherwise.

          I have the stats to back it up and I mention them, for example: With approx. 60 fights and only 3 TKOs it shows that Wlad Klitschko has a good chin. However I wouldn't bet on it.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Gapy Xoze]
    #3805 Honza (2012-03-04th)

    I am very happy that there are still people that agree with abou author who is without question a big time Klitschko fan but can admit that. There is absolutely no problem with being fan of boxer. I am fan of Muhammad. So what? And |Sanders was really outweighing Wlad? I do not know that. Tell me what were their weights because I always thought that Sanders had never more than 240 pounds.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Gapy Xoze]
    #3807 Honza (2012-03-05th)

    Show me proof that Sanders was heavyer than Wlad because I always saw Corrie Sanders weight (225lbs) far from Wlads 240lbs.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Bibu Mary]
    #3811 Honza (2012-03-06th)

    I made mistake about names. You said Puritty and I thought you said Sanders. Of course Sanders was lighter than Wlad and he still koed him (just like Brewster).

  • LasViega says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Dewi Ruva]
    #3870 LasViega (2012-04-14th)

    Corrie Sanders' total KO-ratio is 67,3 % (46 fights, 31 wins by KO).

    Steve Zouski was KO'ed in the 3rd round by (at the time) up-and-runner Mike Tyson in March 10th, 1986. Mike Tyson was (at least somewhat) dissappointed in his own performance and his trainer (at the time) Kevin Rooney rated his performance a "C" (average) in the post-fight interview.

    Mike Tyson's total KO-ratio is 75,8 % (58 fights, 44 wins by KO).

    Corrie Sanders defeated Steve Zouski by UD in November 8th, 1990.

    So, based on their fight against the same opponent and their KO-ratio, Tyson is the harder puncher.

    Corrie Sanders had Wladimir Klitschko hurt like a wounded deer on the run. There's no denying it. But, credit goes to Wladimir for getting up like a man even though he probably knew he was finished. Yes, there was a headbutt in there. You considered it the determining factor, I consider it 'insult to injury'. Wladimir was going down anyway. He was, quite simply dominated by Sanders who proved to be too strong for him. After watching the fight and replay numerous times, this is my conclusion.

    In all honesty, Wladimir Klitschko is a great champion and a great sportsman. But, he does NOT have a great chin.

    • Admin says:
      flag
      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #3871 Admin (2012-04-14th)
      Corrie Sanders defeated Steve Zouski by UD in November 8th, 1990.

      So, based on their fight against the same opponent and their KO-ratio, Tyson is the harder puncher.

      No, what you do is triangulation. Triangulation does not work, see [post=932]

      Otherwise
      * Chris Byrd would be a harder puncher than Mike Tyson, because Byrd TKO4 Ribalta and Tyson TKO10Ribalta.
      * Wladimir Klitschko would be a harder puncher than himself because Wladimir Klitschko UD12 Peter (1st fight) and KO10 (2nd fight).

      In all honesty, Wladimir Klitschko is a great champion and a great sportsman. But, he does NOT have a great chin.

      Yes, that is a possibility, however this cannot be shown by the RoCoLa fights.

      • LasViega says:
        flag
        [ip2username: Dewi Ruva]
        #3872 LasViega (2012-04-15th)
        No, what you do is triangulation. Triangulation does not work, see Typical reproaches

        Otherwise
        * Chris Byrd would be a harder puncher than Mike Tyson, because Byrd TKO4 Ribalta and Tyson TKO10Ribalta.

        Chris Byrd being a more ranged fighter than Tyson would not as easily go into clinches/holding as Tyson VS Ribalta.

        When I watch the Tyson VS Ribalta fight, there is no doubt in my mind Ribalta was fighting to survive by clinching/holding rather than winning, thus postponing the outcome.

        * Wladimir Klitschko would be a harder puncher than himself because Wladimir Klitschko UD12 Peter (1st fight) and KO10 (2nd fight).

        Uhmm.. Right… *Sigh*

        You still ignored the KO-ratios (67,3 % VS 75,8 %).

        Overall, Tyson's KO-ratio is better than Sanders'.

        Tyson IS a more powerful puncher than Sanders.

        Sanders OWNED Wladimir Klitschko that night. He had his ticket, and would've beaten him in a similar fashion in a rematch. This is what happens when a fighter's got the other one beat, mentally and physically.

        I also noted that you have previously come to the conclusion that Ali's got a weak chin because of the Cooper fight. None of the circumstances of foul play (deliberate cut glove, longer break between rounds) were ever proved, thus they remain allegations.

        Bottom line is: You want to conclude Ali's chin is weak because of ONE fight, but you still make excuses for Wladimir Klitschko VS Sanders.

        • Admin says:
          flag
          [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
          #3879 Admin (2012-04-18th)
          Overall, Tyson's KO-ratio is better than Sanders'.

          Tyson IS a more powerful puncher than Sanders.

          Yes, and I never claimed otherwise. Tyson > Sanders in terms of overall KOperformance.

          I also noted that you have previously come to the conclusion that Ali's got a weak chin because of the Cooper fight.

          I never claimed that Ali had a weak chin. I claim that Ali's chin is overrated.

          Bottom line is: You want to conclude Ali's chin is weak because of ONE fight, but you still make excuses for Wladimir Klitschko VS Sanders.

          The difference is that Ali's CHIN got tagged and then Ali went to the floor. In Klitschko's case there were a handful of headbutts involved. Big difference.

  • LasViega says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Dewi Ruva]
    #3883 LasViega (2012-04-20th)
    I never claimed that Ali had a weak chin. I claim that Ali's chin is overrated.

    Ok, let's see what you said in your Klitschko VS Ali analysis:

    Here is a description of Ali's fight against ·Henry Cooper (a 40-14 cruiser bum[?]):

    (*Fight resumè*)

    In my view this fight disqualifies Ali from any consideration as hard chinned.

    Put in short, Ali was knocked down by Cooper at the end of the round.
    Now:
    * Being knocked down by such a bummy featherfist (according to you)
    * Needing extra aid by Dundee that violated the rules (according to you) to recover
    * Needing an extra long break because of a (according to you, deliberately) cut glove, etc.

    Goes a long way in saying Ali's chin was weak according to you. Right?

    No offense, I actually find your blog an entertaining read.

    But one thing you often seem to forget, and the cold hard facts (I'm assuming all your tables of statistics are correct) cannot take into account, is:

    Every dog has his day. What I mean by that is that even someone who is considered a bum and a weak puncher, can throw the occasional harder punch and catch his opponent off-guard. Even someone who is considered the underdog can turn out in sharper-than-his-average form on fight day/night and give the superior opponent a run for his money.

    This is an important point which should always be a reminder.

  • LasViega says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Dewi Ruva]
    #3884 LasViega (2012-04-20th)

    Also:

    The difference is that Ali's CHIN got tagged and then Ali went to the floor. In Klitschko's case there were a handful of headbutts involved. Big difference.

    I agree that headbutting can come into play during knockdowns and KO's, but I disagree about the significance of the headbutting per se.

  • Honza says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Gajy Xode]
    #3886 Honza (2012-04-22nd)

    1.Deducting something from 3 losses (of approximately 60 fights) is actually ridiculous. It's equally ridiculous to deduct something from 3 wins (of proximately 60 losses).
    In that case: Muhammad Ali has very good chin because he was tkoed only once out of 61 fights and floored only four times.

    The difference is that Ali's CHIN got tagged and then Ali went to the floor. In Klitschko's case there were a handful of headbutts involved. Big difference.
    Another big difference is that Wlad went down three more times in that fight (without headbutt)and lost via tko. Ali got back and totally dominated Cooper in the fifth round. :lol:
    If you come with Sdunek fault I will agree with you but even you must admit that any boxer must know the best what to do in danger.

  • LasViega says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Dewi Ruva]
    #3973 LasViega (2012-05-11th)

    I believe any fighter is entitled to a fair shake, including both Ali and the Klitschko brothers.

    I don't want to disrespect any fighter, yesterday or present.

    Ali was a great champion.

    Tyson was a great champion.

    The Klitschkos are great champions (and I also agree with the majority who'd say the older brother Vitali is the strongest of the two). I'll leave it at that.

    Quite frankly IMO, this is a pro-Klitschko & anti-Ali blog, despite all the statistics.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Tany Xone]
    #3982 Honza (2012-05-16th)

    Quite frankly IMO, this is a pro-Klitschko & anti-Ali blog, despite all the statistics.

    Exactly my point. It shut not be called a objective view on heavyweight boxing.

  • krle says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Xapy Xoje]
    #4046 krle (2012-07-16th)

    you ARE a klit nut huger.. and a huge one at that.. as proven by your over explaining and looking for justifications where there are none necessary. I for one do not think that klits have a glass jaw, and Wlad is a very good boxer, although Vitalij is somewhat of a slow robot these days (personally think Haye could take Vitalij on a good night). He was great against Lewis though. And I suppose Solis didnt injure himself but was koed?

    They are both arrogant dickheads. Vitalij more so.

    Sanders KO was perfectly legit, as was Ross Purity, only a nut huger could seriously claim that it was the head butt that did it, or explain it away by over pacing and such.. he lost, its ok. whats all the fuss about? And the stoppage was perfectly ok in Brewster case too. Had Klit been allowed to fight further, he would have suffered a classical KO in all of those matches.

    There are considerable double standards in your reasoning too. You dismiss comments form experts and trainers when it suits you, and present them as "truth" when it suits you otherwise.. and Emanuel Steward is a well known bs-er.

    Same for hyping up the fights. When commenting on the 70s, its all just hype, but when its hype before a klit fight, then it presents an "objective opinion"..

    And yes, Klitschkos are handpicking easy opponents

    and yes, it is boring, as mismatches usually are.. it is as entertaining to watch as it would be me beating up a a 10 year old..

    • Admin says:
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      [ip2username: Suva Mywo]
      #4047 Admin (2012-07-16th)
      Sanders KO was perfectly legit, as was Ross Purity

      Of course KOs like Wlad vs Ross are as legit as KOs can be. But they had nothing to do with a _CHIN_ issue. The topic of this thread is not about "KO or not KO" but about "Chin or no Chin".

      And yes, Klitschkos are handpicking easy opponents

      Vitali may be. Wlad definitely isn't.

    • Honza says:
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      [ip2username: Nady Sore]
      #5237 Honza (2012-10-29th)

      Great post. respect.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Nady Sore]
    #5236 Honza (2012-10-29th)

    Vitali may be. Wlad definitely isn't.

    Absolutely. Vitali knows that his time is over so that is why he was facing such mediocre fighters in the last years.

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Waky Boke]
    #5441 Honza (2012-12-18th)

    There are considerable double standards in your reasoning too. You dismiss comments form experts and trainers when it suits you, and present them as "truth" when it suits you otherwise.. and Emanuel Steward is a well known bs-er.

    Same for hyping up the fights. When commenting on the 70s, its all just hype, but when its hype before a klit fight, then it presents an "objective opinion"..

    I can not agree more. Absolutely true. :)

  • LasViega says:
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    [ip2username: Dewi Ruva]
    #5532 LasViega (2013-03-03rd)

    I definitely agree with 'krle' on a lot of points, particularly the statement that OP/Admin is looking for excuses/justifications on Wladimir's part where none are necessary. Amen to that!

    They have become somewhat arrogant, which I won't blame them for (being champion for quite some time can do that to a man). However, I don't consider them to be arrogant dickheads.

    I've previously stated that Wladimir does NOT have a great chin, which I stand by. But that doesn't mean I think his chin is weak either. IMO Wladimir's chin is fair. In other words, his chin is decent; nowhere near very good or great.

    Wladimir has gotten used to dominating his opponents, but we've seen what could happen when an opponent is able to take the fight to him. Corrie Sanders (R.I.P.) exposed Wladimir Klitschko as someone who very well could be beaten, (just a few days from) 10 years ago.

  • LasViega says:
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    [ip2username: Dewi Ruva]
    #5536 LasViega (2013-03-05th)

    Furthermore, I'm not disrespecting Wladimir Klitschko with my verdict, seeing as most of the public who follow boxing give him a weak chin-rating.

    Given his weakened/exhausted state in VS Brewster (I) when Brewster began his onslaught (5th round), I too find this particular fight too inconclusive to assess how strong/weak his chin is. I watched this fight on TV at the time it happened and was quite baffled. One of the norwegian commentators was former boxer Steffen Tangstad, who post-fight stated (roughly translated): "Wladimir's trainer will have a big problem explaining how this could happen to someone who was supposedly in top shape during training camp. He obviously does not have stamina." Far as I recall, Tangstad made no comments on Wladimir's chin.
    I won't delve into any speculations about Wladimir being intentionally poisoned or not, since we'll never know. Speculations are not my cup of tea.

    I honestly feel that a fair/decent chin-rating is the most accurate.

  • Tommo says:
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    [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
    #5709 Tommo (2013-03-27th)

    I believe in most of the authors statements and his use of statistics is mostly sound. However as Honza and several others correctly point out this site is HEAVILY biased toward Wladimir, he is most DEFINITELY a die hard fan, plays down Wladimir's faults by logical reasoning but fails to apply the same logic when playing up on Ali's. To be objective is not just to present all the facts but to deliver even handed treatment also. I like Wladimir as well and think Ali is grossly overrated. But he is NOT perfect and Ali is NOT a bum and their are countless other good boxers in between that have been outright dismissed. Please lets get away from this Wlad is greatest, Ali is crap theme it's been done and dusted.

    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5724 Tommo (2013-03-28th)

      Start analysing the 90's talent mate and you'll bring some refreshment to this site, even compare them to Wlad and Ali if you have to, should generate a lot of debate and be an exciting blog. You just shouldn't call this an "objective view on HW boxing" and then only concentrate on mainly 2 boxers, esp with such bias.

      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5759 Tommo (2013-03-29th)

        Besides, even if you are correct, and I believe you are, you are comparing Wlad constantly to a fighter from 40 years ago who when shown to someone who has no idea about boxing or knows either fighter they say Ali has no chance. So really if you're so confident, as I am, we should move on to something we would consider more competitive. Unless you're scared of debating something where the stats and facts aren't overwhelmingly in your favour. Just a thought mate!! :)

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Gajy Xode]
    #6110 Honza (2013-04-19th)

    So Wladimir chin is untested or is speculation if he has glass chin because we are talking about three ko losses out of so many matches. That is true but author should aplicate this logic on every boxer because saying George has doubtful chin because he was koed by feathrfist, knockdowned by featherfist and wobled by featherfist right? That is also based on three matches (Ali, Young and Moorer fights). From this we can also say that Riddick Bowe had bad chin because he was dropped by Evander in their third fight. It is truly stupid how he is judging other boxers chin by same logic as Klitschko haters judge his beloved Wladimir. It is the same how Klitschko fans love to come up with Vitali having iron chin based on TWO fights (Lewis and Sanders fights).

    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Xupa Gyko]
      #6111 Tommo (2013-04-19th)

      Once again his double standards have led to being able to use the same logic against him :) All we can really say is that Wladimir certainly SEEMS determined not to get hit. Whether that's because he has a glass jaw and he knows it can't say, it's always good form not to take punches on the other hand lol. The punches today are harder overall than in Clay's day so there would be more to worry about too. And on the flip side though even if we take Ali's era as featherfisted he still did fight a few big hitters (George especially being one of the alltime biggest) and it's obvious he could take a punch atleast in that era since he took so many lol. Despite all the running away and clinching you can't say he was scared of getting hurt, he fought with much courage. When I look at all the modern punchers I could only grant that Ali's chin was never tested against sharp power punchers (George was a little unco) like Tyson, Lennox, Klitschko's etc. who would not only hit hard but also accurately timed and placed, but that's not to say he couldn't take them, we can't know for sure. I believe cruiserish Ali and up to 212lbs would be knocked out but heavier and slightly chubby Ali might take them a little better.

      • Honza says:
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        [ip2username: Gajy Xode]
        #6112 Honza (2013-04-19th)

        In my opinion Klitschkos and Lewis have (had) good chin. I think every boxer who can take power shots must have at least decent chin. I hated those stupid commentators when they started critisizing Wlad for his whope ass from Brewster. Yeah he looked bad on that moment. He looked like he is gonna die but there was no reason for such a statements ("this makes Lewis chin looked like a granite"). Ali also had a good chin. But then there are boxers who really had an IRON CHIN. To me for this category belongs Evander, Puritty, Mccall and maybe somebody else (Chuvalo maybe). You know Tommo I am glad you come up with Muhammad but I was talking more about George. According to Admin he had doubtful chin because Ali koed him, Jimmy Young dropped him (not very good kd if you thin) and Moorer gave him some power shots that moved with him. Beacause of that. I can say that is a big bullsh*t. George as old man was never in danger of ko and he was in ring with some punchers. Cooney tried to move with George, Tommy tried to move with George and they tried well but I never seemed George at least move from pozition. He was very tough. He and Larry are boxers from 70s who were very close to have an IRON CHIN.

      • Tommo says:
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        [ip2username: Xupa Gyko]
        #6117 Tommo (2013-04-20th)

        Doubtful chin lol, I can't believe it. Obviously George was gassed out in Ali fight and I think lucky punch could be called in for Young. Sometimes sh*t happens. But seriously from Muhammad onward he fought hitters Morrison/Cooney etc when he was older and never rocked plus when young and prime he took bombs from Lyle as well, a guy his own size and also regarded as a hard hitter. It's fair to say that it is another reason that propelled George and Larry through to the 90s.

        On Wladimir, it's fair to say that that the 3 fighters he lost to all could pack a hard enough punch to KO a heavyweight with even a good chin and I feel they were lucky to land it. He avenged one and believe he was more than capable of avenging the other 2.

        • Honza says:
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          [ip2username: Gajy Xode]
          #6118 Honza (2013-04-20th)

          I also believe that Wlad could win rematches with Corrie and Ross. I sometimes think that Klitschko fans like to overrate Corrie Sanders. He was good boxer (quick hard hitting southpaw). But some guy once said that he was often ducked by american top guys in 90s (I think they even mentioned Evander) and I think that is a lie. He was good but there were reasond why he did not make it to the top earlier. He just was not THAT good. Same goes for Brewster. Puncher with great chin who suffered from not very big size and not some special boxing skills. Admin said thet Brewster had same ko ratio as Mike. Sorry but compare those two at their primes and tell me who is a better boxer. Ross Puritty was a punch bag with iron chin and good punch. Not much more to say.
          If I can comeback to Vitali/Lennox fight. There is not one match that would divided fans so much. We still argue what shoulda woulda coulda if that match continued. It was also very important match for its timeline. It was "crossing eras" match. There are fans of Vitali who would love to see Vitali wins his biggest challenge and there are Lennox fans who are happy that there was a still this old great champ who stopped Vitali. By the way why were so many people suprised that Lennox Lewis did not go for rematch? I never seen Lewis beating one boxer twice. He only faced somebody when he lost in the first place. That is why there was no rematch.

          • Tommo says:
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            [ip2username: Xupa Gyko]
            #6119 Tommo (2013-04-20th)

            Yes RoCoLa were not all world beaters and no, any claims Lamon or Corrie being as good as Tyson are outlandish. Fact is whether it means Wlad is weak jawed or not is not clear but he failed to take their shots and proves that Wlads defense was penetrated. Tysons record has been labelled as bum-beater and quick glance at Lamon or Corries records reveal apart from shock upset of Wlad nothing better than Tysons.

            That's a bit unfair of Lewis really although it's smart as well. Once defeated you don't have to risk losing a rematch to same fighter and nullifying your win somewhat in the first place. But expecting to receive a rematch from a conquerer is a bit having it both ways lol. It was a very vicious cut. I think he should have caked up the vaseline against Lewis, might have prevented the skin tearing like it did. It certainly was a controversial fight, I think that should definitely have been a rematch, even Foreman said so and Lennox should have made it. I can understand his point of view too though, it just sucks it ended that way.

          • Tommo says:
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            [ip2username: Xupa Gyko]
            #6120 Tommo (2013-04-20th)

            Corrie ducked by which American boxers? Certainly not any of the top competitiors like Evander though. Apparently he was another lazy guy with regards to training so maybe if he was dedicated he could have been seriously good but as he was he was not at the same level overall as Wladimir or Evander for that matter. Seen Tyson/Holyfield today, always mixed emotions in that fight for me. Great battle but I like both boxers same lol

            • Honza says:
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              [ip2username: Gajy Xode]
              #6122 Honza (2013-04-20th)

              You watched the first clash between the two? I have both matches on cd and actually the second one was in terms of excitment even better but Mike blew it with that bite. Those battle are great but I think first two encounters between Evander and Riddick are a bit better. I also like Evander and Mike a lot but still Evander is more popular for me. A little. :)

  • Honza says:
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    [ip2username: Gajy Xode]
    #6123 Honza (2013-04-20th)

    Waste of time. Wladimir Klitschko, he's not tough enough. It would be a waste of my time to fight him.
    Lennox Lewis
    When did he said that? He was truly a king of ego. About that Sanders ducking I thin it is the same thing as Admins claim that Klitschkos were ducked from a start. If you look at Vitali performance with Ribalta and compare it with Lewis wins over Tommy or Golota then most people have to admit that Lewis would win. It is a nice coincidence that you watched Holy/Mike fight. I watched Beyond the glory Evander Holyfield document and that basically ends with Evander win over Mike. It is said that:"after beating Mike Evander had nothing else to prove. He had secured his place in boxing history cause he had beaten everybody who was any good at the time."

    • Honza says:
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      [ip2username: Gajy Xode]
      #6124 Honza (2013-04-20th)

      David Haye was out of his class. He was cautious and careful… Where were you, David? You tried to challenge me but couldn't.
      Wladimir Klitschko
      Another talk from NEW king of ego. Wlad and Lewis are more simialr then I thought.

  • Tommo says:
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    [ip2username: Loze Xivu]
    #6410 Tommo (2013-07-30th)

    I know this will not sit well with the nostalgist but comparing the losses of Ali and Louis to the losses of Klitschko's and Lewis and accusing the latter of being beaten by bums is preposterous!

    Brewster and Sanders would DESTROY Frazier, Norton or Spinks and I have reservations of whether the Ali conquerers could even really beat Puritty!

    Likewise with McCall and Rahman. They could easily smash up any of the 3 that beat Ali and I'm pretty sure Hasim would canvas KO Ali himself any day a week!

    Obviously any of the guys who beat Louis would get flogged out pretty quick. Hell Joe Louis nearly got KO'd by an Emperor penguin! A Danny Devito look alike in Tony Galento!

    Never would Wlad or Lennox be troubled by opponents so flimsy… FACT!

    No special treatment, just can't see it going down any other way realistically.

  • LasViega says:
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    [ip2username: Mose Lizu]
    #6514 LasViega (2013-09-22nd)

    I just have to say, even though Jim Lampley was somewhat wrong with his comment at the time (Klitschko VS Brewster I):

    "Wladimir's chin makes Lennox Lewis' look like granite!"

    (Referring to Lennox Lewis' suspect chin, thus pretty much saying Wlad's chin is poor)

    He is still one of the best sports/boxing commentators that I've seen. His assessments of what is going on in a fight is usually spot-on IMO. Couldn't have said it better myself.

  • LasViega says:
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    [ip2username: Tupa Nygo]
    #7100 LasViega (2014-04-18th)

    Note that the average Joe like you or me would most likely be exhausted within one or two round of professional heavyweight boxing, so I do not want to sound like someone who's disrespecting Wlad or any other professional, past or present, so when I consider chin I consider it compared to the world's best, like most of us would.

    OP/Admin's speculations along the lines of "Is it possible that Wlad has a good, even a very good chin" are utter nonsense IMO.

    And I believe NO, you cannot train chin per se, but:

    Your physique can affect your chin, your endurance/stamina is a crucial factor, your age is another one, mentally being willing to take a punch (heart) has an effect, accumulated punishment during your career will lessen your chin, of course being able to see punches coming and rolling with them will prevent you from going down, etc…

    Then there is the factor that chin (or lack thereof) is also determined by your brain's nervous system, the part that decides to put you down to protect you when it has decided that you've had enough, the factor that just cannot be trained or overcome IMO. It's a given to assume this threshold would individually differ and a hard-chinned boxer (i.e. Holyfield) naturally has this threshold set very high and in contrast would explain why a boxer who is otherwise in excellent condition just never had a granite jaw.

    Corrie would spank Wladimir again, again and again at any point during his career up until Corrie became a late great. Yup, you guessed it: A thourough, one-sided beatdown repeatedly recieved at the hands of Sanders. I've stated this earlier and I'm a firm believer.

    I am absolutely convinced Wladimir would lose a rematch against Corrie Sanders and Wlad VS Corrie is a definite proof that Wladimir never had an iron chin. Resorting to excuse Wlad's most definite KO-loss by blaming the ("Anvil'ing") headbutt? That is a completely unsubstantiated opinion, blowing the effects of a (few?) headbutt(s?) out of proportion and making it out to be something it is not = baloney. That dog ain't gonna' hunt.

    Had Wladimir had an iron chin he would not have gone down VS Corrie Sanders like he did. He would have taken the punishment and moved on, possbibly prevailed like his older, stronger Brother Vitali did. Then, of course, he's not his older brother, he's still good, but Vitali would whoop him any day of the week. We all know that.

    It is furthermore interesting to consider David Haye, who probably according to OP/Admin's opinion would be a "china-chinned featherfist" going the distance with Wlad. I'd like to see OP/Admin explain that, especially considering Wlad's impressive KO stats? And how come this "china-chinned featherfist" managed to KO Dereck Chisora when Vitali (almost equally impressive KO stats compared to Wlad) failed to do so?

    Also note that OP/Admin rejects the use of triangulation, but has resorted to triangulation in some cases when it suits him (i.e. Mike Tyson VS Jose Ribalta). That means that whenever OP/Admin rejects triangulation, it is a double standard.

    • Tommo says:
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      [ip2username: Kamy Vote]
      #7735 Tommo (2014-12-01st)

      Wladimir has a good chin bro even for todays standards, the most superheavyweight fights of all boxers with only a single real KO loss entire career which involved huge head clash.

      Always finished fight on his feet an got up from multiple KD's vs Corrie and other fighters to win!

      Never once been sparked out cold!

      Taken innumerable bombs hard enough to KO about 3 past ATG's at once throughout career and barely flinched!

      It's clear.

      Also, if you rate WK's chin vs pre80's competition, WK has an IRON chin!

      Objectively, WK's chin is HARDER than Ali's, by far!

      Corrie Sanders always has a punchers chance vs Wlad. But vs even a pre-Manny Wlad again that was prepared, that's ALWAYS a "FAT" chance!

      Corrie was simply lucky.

  • Flem says:
    flag
    [ip2username: Gisu Xaty]
    #7738 Flem (2014-12-05th)

    Jesus Christ, are you in love with him or something? What the opposite, someone who is on Vlad's Jock! I don't hate him at all, but Corrie Kicked his Ass. Deal with it. I'm a Tyson fan, I don't care that nine times out of ten Tyson whups him, on that night in the real world, not interenet hinsight, Buster beat him up. Seriously, accept it, you'll feel better.
    Also I love how you claim, 'Clay,' as you call him never fought anyone with Corrie's southpaw power, and then later on go on to claim the whole fight, a head-butt bonanza, make up your goddamned mind.
    God, I love that video btw, "Down goes Klitschko, down goes Klitschko! Ha!"


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